A hand I don't think I played well. KT in the BB

[cold_cash]

This one felt pretty much crappy from the get go. I have a few ideas about how I could have played it better, but I thought I'd post it and hopefully take some lumps that get me thinking.

Unfortunately I didn't have much of a read on MP2. He'd only just sat down and I hadn't seen him before.

SB was weak and loose. (Says the pot to the kettle.)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 10.50 BB, between Hero and MP2.</font>

[joker122]

why didn't you 3bet the flop?

[BottlesOf]

3-bet the flop. Should play different from there.

[laja]

just fine played:) The reraise on the flop is by no means necessary especially since such a poor kicker...

[wuwei]

How much do we learn from 3-betting the flop when we don't have a read on MP2? What's our line from there?

Or are we 3-betting because we have a sb who sucks and wants to tag along and we may still have the best hand? If so, doesn't that sort of tie us to this hand?

I'm sure it wasn't much fun, but I think you played this hand fine. Maybe it's bad, but I'll often call down here to get a read on my opponent. If I already think he's decent, I'll call the flop raise and fold the turn unimproved.

On the flop, I don't think we get good information by 3-betting, and I don't like bet/folding to a raise on the flop against an unknown opponent. So we're left with calling.

Next, you pick up some outs on the turn giving you odds to call even if you're behind, and then the river counterfeits some hands that were ahead of you. Once you're that far, the river call is easy.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
why didn't you 3bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

to you and JBB:

because he's probably beat? raises in this spot always scare me, since it's unlikely to be a draw. 3-betting doesn't protect his hand, it just makes it appear to be stronger than it is. do you really think there's a good enough chance that he's ahead to 3-bet?

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
raises in this spot always scare me, since it's unlikely to be a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it unlikely to be a diamond draw or 78?

scrub

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raises in this spot always scare me, since it's unlikely to be a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it unlikely to be a diamond draw or 78?


[/ QUOTE ]


there was a bet and 3 people behind him. that would be a terrible raise. I think most people at leave have the common sense to not chase people out with draws

[scrub]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned going stop and go. I think it's got a lot going for it.

scrub

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

scrub

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned going stop and go. I think it's got a lot going for it.


[/ QUOTE ]


that's only because I don't think he has a draw. if I thought he could have a draw it definitely does have merit

[sthief09]

good point...

[slavic]

If I'm going to continue with this hand I normally 3 bet the flop and lead the turn. With an unknown player your angle is not terrible I just like to push. If he pushes back on the turn cards hit the muck.

[joker122]

it's a worse king most of the time.

[jordanx]

I usually stop and go w/ KT, KJ, K9 here with limited success.

Unfortunately, what usually happens is he calls me down and shows me two pair or a higher kicker.

I think a read here is really important.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned going stop and go. I think it's got a lot going for it.


[/ QUOTE ]


that's only because I don't think he has a draw. if I thought he could have a draw it definitely does have merit

[/ QUOTE ]

What does the term stop and go mean?

Also, sthief, would you have played this hand the same way?

gm

[scrub]

During my recent whirlwind tour of PP 3/6, I ran into a number of players who just raised their draws indiscriminately.

Two guys did this to me tonight playing 6max.

I think it's dangerous to assume that anyone you're playing against is sophisticated enough to know when to raise a draw and when not to.

While I guess KJ and KQ are likely holdings, so are K(crappy)s, either draw, middle pair (some players, especialy v. blinds).

I don't want to give up a free card here when my hand is good. I also find that it's harder to tell where you stand after 3-betting when there are two possible draws out and nobody raised preflop.

I hate checking to the guy when he caps and then checks behind. That's not as common play in these games, but I did see it more than once during the my recent foray at 3/6.

Going stop and go when a the flush doesn't hit and calling down a turn raise if one of the draws doesn't come off is a valid option against an unknown. Going stop and go and folding to a turn raise is would be a valid option against a passive player you knew well enough to fold top pair to (I think many of you guys think you know more players well enough to fold top pair to than you actually do, btw).

scrub

[jordanx]

Stop-N-Go means just calling the raise on the flop as opposed to raising, then leading the turn with a bet instead of checking.

I mostly play live and I have a canned Stop and Go play that usually confuses players into passiveness.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
that's only because I don't think he has a draw. if I thought he could have a draw it definitely does have merit

[/ QUOTE ]

if you thought he had a draw why wouldn't 3betting the flop be better than a SnG?

[sthief09]

because there's a chance he doesn't have a draw? I don't know. all I know is that I don't think he has a draw and I think the chances we are beat outweight the chances we aren't beat.

[sthief09]

stop and go means call the flop, then come out firing on the turn.

yes, I would've played it the same, but everyone is disagreeing with me, so it seems like 3-betting the flop is the right move. I'm a bit on the weak side

[sthief09]

Board: Kc 6d 9d

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 50.7511 % [ 45.17 05.58 ] { TT-99, 66, A9s, KQs-K2s, 96s, KQo-K4o }
Hand 2: 49.2489 % [ 43.67 05.58 ] { KsTc }



so I guess 3-bet because of the SB

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
so I guess 3-bet because of the SB

[/ QUOTE ]

When the turn card comes 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, do you come out firing?

gm

[sthief09]

yeah, that card doesn't change anything.

[helpmeout]

I play it the same KT is a bit weak to 3bet especially without a read.

As far as him having a flush draw, personally I would want overcalls with a flush draw so why would he raise you?

His bet cries TP or better and your kicker isnt good enough to 3bet.

Call down and hope for the best.

[cold_cash]

I was thinking that with the SB in 3-betting the flop would have been best, but if it was a heads up pot maybe my line was okay. I'm still not really sure about this though.

The problem I had with raising was that many times in a similar situation I would 3-bet the flop, then lead the turn and river only to be called down by a better hand. Even though I'm not sure that's such a terrible thing expectation-wise, I had it on my mind.

I'm still going over the responses (the stop and go idea is interesting) but I thought I'd post the results before I took off for class this morning.

MP2 had QK.