Good or bad

[Synth]

Home game .50/1 blinds.

Hero($50)
CO ($27)

I am UTG with 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and limp. folded around to the BB who raises (this player is a TAG but is known to make some very loose calls and raises), I call

Flop: [5 /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif]

He moves all-in for his $27 into a $9.50 pot.

I thought for a bit and decided to call, the reason for my call was because This player knows I just took a bad beat with JJ and am quite frustrated over it. Also, this player bets out on alot of flops with nothing, sometimes large and sometimes small. It also seemed fishy to me that if he did hold a Q, why would he move all-in for $9.50 instead of trying to get another bet out of me.

He ended up having AQo and I didn't improve.

Was this call bad or (because of this players image) good?

[willie24]

this call is terrible. AQ is not a hand to try and squeeze out extra money with. its a vulnerable hand and him going allin with that sized stack makes sense.

because he knows you just took a bad beat hes going to assume that you are going to play too loose, and might even call his allin with a hand worse than AQ.

this is exactly what you did.

[spentrent]

Would you do what he did with a pair of fives?

[Snoogins47]

He feels you just took a bad beat and are tilting.

Therefore, he feels he can make more money off you.

Therefore, he's probably not bluffing.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't tend to equate an opponent on tilt as a good time to make massive overbet bluffs, and I doubt he did either.

[Synth]

I wasn't thinking much when I first typed up this post so I decided to elaborate more about my opponent and his image to give you a little more of an understanding on why I made this call.

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the reason for my call was because This player knows I just took a bad beat with JJ and am quite frustrated over it

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because he knows you just took a bad beat hes going to assume that you are going to play too loose...

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I understand your response and it makes great sense. Let it be clear that I will still play my game frustrated or not the same way I would if I didn't face a bad beat prior. None the less my opponent doesn't know that and probably never will and that's because this player (along with many others I play with)are not observant.

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....and might even call his allin with a hand worse than AQ.

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This player has never been the type of player to make this type of play before unless his stack is slightly above or below the size of the pot or on a pure bluff. He's always either bet, check-raised, or called on the flop and pushed on the turn or river with made hands.(mainly the river). A big point I forgot to mention on my first post.

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It also seemed fishy to me that if he did hold a Q, why would he move all-in for $9.50 instead of trying to get another bet out of me.

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AQ is not a hand to try and squeeze out extra money with. its a vulnerable hand

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I am aware AQ is a vulnerable hand, what I wasn't aware of was whether he knew that or not.
The reason this all-in seemed fishy was for the resons I stated above, and that was because he never did it before unless on a pure bluff. The reason I thought about it a little longer and hadn't immediately called was because of the slight chance he might be making this play with the best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you do what he did with a pair of fives?

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I'm not quite to sure what this is supposed to mean but if you're assuming that I thought he was doing this with another hand besides a Q then that would be correct because that's exactly what I thought and that's because of his image as a TAG who sometimes raises and calls with marginal hands and pushs on the flop when bluffing.

[ QUOTE ]
He feels you just took a bad beat and are tilting.

Therefore, he feels he can make more money off you.

Therefore, he's probably not bluffing.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't tend to equate an opponent on tilt as a good time to make massive overbet bluffs, and I doubt he did either.

[/ QUOTE ]

This time he wasn't bluffing but that's not to say he never did. As I mentioned before this player has bluffed before on the flop with an all-in bet and that's another point that had come to mind when I was making my descison on whether to call or not.

This player is predicatable or I should say was predictable and given all this about him I felt like the call made sense. Now that I have witnessed for the first time an all-in bet on the flop with the best hand I can be prepared for future games.

[Richie Rich]

It's only a good move if you were VERY confident that your opponent had A-x (most likely AK or AJ). In that case, you would've been a 3-to-1 favorite to win.

But you lose to nearly every other holding that a typical player would raise before the flop -- this includes all higher pocket pairs, as well 5s and 4s, and AQ/KQ/QJ. And even if he only has two random overcards, like J10s, he still has a handful of clean outs.

So if you'll lose this hand "significantly more often" than you'll win it, do you think it was a good call?

[Synth]

[ QUOTE ]
It's only a good move if you were VERY confident that your opponent had A-x (most likely AK or AJ). In that case, you would've been a 3-to-1 favorite to win.

But you lose to nearly every other holding that a typical player would raise before the flop -- this includes all higher pocket pairs, as well 5s and 4s, and AQ/KQ/QJ. And even if he only has two random overcards, like J10s, he still has a handful of clean outs.

So if you'll lose this hand "significantly more often" than you'll win it, do you think it was a good call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well when you're known to bluff when you push all-in on the flop (unless your stack is relative to the pot) do you fold on the hopes that a player for the first time has the better hand and has you beat?

he could be doing this with A5, 66, 22, AK, whatever, I can only go by what I know about this player, and if that's all I have on him for the moment then I have to make that call.

So I ask you this, given all this information lets say I folded. Would you say it was a good fold?

[Richie Rich]

When you add up all of his possible raise-worthy hands, combined with their probabilities, compared to your 7s, calling his push was a mathematically -EV move. If you laid it down after his raise, I'd be more inclined to call it a "smart laydown" instead of a "good laydown".

[willie24]

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given all this information lets say I folded. Would you say it was a good fold?

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yes absolutely

if he were equally likely to have any of the following hands: AK, AJ, AT, A9, A8, QJ, QT, JT, JJ, TT, 99,88 66, 55, 44, 33, 22...this would still be a bad call. you can figure this out if you do the math.

remember even if you are ahead of 2 overcards, there's still a 25% chance you are going to lose the showdown.

add in a chance that he might actually have AQ or KQ and calling becomes even worse.

[Synth]

[ QUOTE ]
When you add up all of his possible raise-worthy hands, combined with their probabilities, compared to your 7s, calling his push was a mathematically -EV move. If you laid it down after his raise, I'd be more inclined to call it a "smart laydown" instead of a "good laydown".

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yes absolutely

if he were equally likely to have any of the following hands: AK, AJ, AT, A9, A8, QJ, QT, JT, JJ, TT, 99,88 66, 55, 44, 33, 22...this would still be a bad call. you can figure this out if you do the math.

remember even if you are ahead of 2 overcards, there's still a 25% chance you are going to lose the showdown.

add in a chance that he might actually have AQ or KQ and calling becomes even worse.

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Agreed.

even though when sitting across my opponent facing his all-in smelt like one of his typical bluffs, I didn't factor in his possible raise-worthy hands, combined with their probabilities, compared to my 7's which would of made this call -EV.

A costly error I should have taken notice off and simply didn't.

Ty for your replies they're appreciated.

[soah]

He raised to to $4.50 preflop and has less than $30 to start with? You clearly aren't getting the right odds to flop a set here. Unless he has some big tell that you can use to figure out when he misses the flop, you can't call that raise. On the flop you have a very easy fold. The fact that he knows you are tilting makes it even easier (and is probably why he chose to do it in the first place.) A raise from the blinds followed by an overbet-push on the flop is almost never a bluff.