Was this fold logical?

[theblitz]

Although I would have won this hand if I had not folded, was the fold nevertheless logical?
Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (10 handed)

Hero ($35.35)
MP1 ($7.73)
MP2 ($32.25)
MP3 ($17.70)
CO ($25.50)
Button ($25.25)
SB ($16.93)
BB ($25.05)
UTG ($30.42)
UTG+1 ($13.75)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $0.9</font>, MP1 calls $0.90, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $2.1</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $1.85, Hero calls $1.20, MP1 calls $1.20.

Flop: ($8.65) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets $3</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $3, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to $5.63</font> (All-In), SB calls $2.63, Hero folds.

Turn: ($22.91) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

River: ($22.91) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $22.91

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB has Qs Qc (two pair, queens and tens).
MP1 has 7h 7c (two pair, tens and sevens).
Outcome: SB wins $22.91. </font>

I was sure that one of my two opponents would be on AT or something similar. Also, had it just been the all-in I would have called.

Was I being over-cautious or just unlucky?

[fimbulwinter]

yes, fold is logical, especially considering the $ that SB still had to take off you if he had a T.

however, your preflop play is not. push with KK preflop at these levels 100% of the time. that preflop scenario is a SS dream come true- take advantage of it.

fim

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, fold is logical, especially considering the $ that SB still had to take off you if he had a T.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes me feel a bit better. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ QUOTE ]
however, your preflop play is not. push with KK preflop at these levels 100% of the time. that preflop scenario is a SS dream come true- take advantage of it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I find that if I raise more than 90c in a 10/25c room people tend to fold out completly. Surely I want some action?

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes, fold is logical, especially considering the $ that SB still had to take off you if he had a T.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes me feel a bit better. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ QUOTE ]
however, your preflop play is not. push with KK preflop at these levels 100% of the time. that preflop scenario is a SS dream come true- take advantage of it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I find that if I raise more than 90c in a 10/25c room people tend to fold out completly. Surely I want some action?

[/ QUOTE ]

your initial raise is great. your calling of the re-raise is why you're being sent to the corner to think about what you've done.

fim /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[willie24]

[ QUOTE ]
I was sure that one of my two opponents would be on AT or something similar. Also, had it just been the all-in I would have called.


[/ QUOTE ]

who reraises against an UTG+1 from the small blind with AT? if you think there is even a remote chance a player in this game might do this, this is a very good game to be in and you absolutely must reraise preflop.

even if the player is not a psycho, you must be absolutely convinced that he is the most passive player in the world not to reraise. if you are truly convinced, you need to fold on the flop when you don't hit a set, knowing full-well that SB has AA.

against the majority of players you can be confident re-raising preflop.

as for the fold to mp1, the pot at this point was $22, and the bet to you was 2.63. can you really be 90% sure that mp1 has 44 or some 10x hand that he played way too loose?

by just calling, SB is telling you that he is not that sure that he is winning either. unless he's a good player, he's unlikely to make a significant bet on the river. (if he does, you only have to fear AA). you are probably going to get to show down here for pretty cheap

[JasonK]

I would have at least called the $2.63 on the flop. The pot's too big to fold to that small of a bet.

[theblitz]

It's not the $2.63 that scared me off.
I would have called if it was the river or one player all-in.
It was just the chips that SB had meant I would be betting down to the river.

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]

It was just the chips that SB had meant I would be betting down to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

that isnt true. if sb doesnt have a 10 yet still calls the guys all in, he likely wont continue betting.

since you have position on him, i would call there and see what he does on the turn. if he fires again you can fold, as that move greatly increases the chances he has a 10. folding the flop getting those kind of odds vs those types of opponents is almost criminal. especially when you consider that the guy that went all in on the flop would also do that with alot of other hands, and the sb would bet alot of hands there too.

[theblitz]

Another thought:

If I am going to call then maybe a raise would be logical? Try to force him to show his strength now?

[willie24]

the time to raise was preflop. assuming that at the site you are playing a raise must be as least as big as the previous bet on that same round, i would not raise here. i would call and then make a smallish medium bet on the turn, and then probably check the river.

by now i am fairly scared that SB has AA. he's scared too though, and that's going to work to your advantage.

of course all this is avoided when you reraise and commit yourself preflop.

[Burno]

I haven't looked at the results yet.

I don't like the fold at all. I agree with what others have said, re-raise or push preflop. Here's how I would play it postflop. Ideally, I'd min re-raise the SB's all-in, bet the turn and check the river unless I fill up.

Basically I'd try to play my hand the way an "obvious" player would play AT or 44, besides the river check. But we can't do that since the all in was less than the original bet, right?

So I'd call the MP's all in because it's only 2.63 more in a ~$20 pot. If you call the SB should fear a T or an overpair. I'd expect to see a tester bet on the turn if he has AA, QQ, or JJ. If he bets $5 or so, min-raise him. This is only to slow him down, and use our position to take a free showdown. If he follows my line, I don't believe I have the read to value bet the river.

This all may sound a little silly, but I think the situation warrants it. The MP all in can have nearly anything here, 88, 99, etc. The SB is representing a big pair, but you beat two of the three, although less people re-raise UTG+2 raise with JJ from the SB.


Burno

I looked at the results now and like my line more than ever

[soah]

I wouldn't fold there. It is quite illogical to assume that the SB hold a ten there. He put in the final raise preflop so he's going to bet nearly any flop. The shortstacked guy knows that too. These low-limit guys have watched way too much WPT and choose to take stands with all sorts of trash when short-stacked. He'll turn up with 22, A6, or some other trash more often than he'll actually have any piece of the board.

To put this in perspective, you are getting around 10:1 closing the action and you will spike a king on the turn or the river about 8.5% of the time. If no more money goes in the pot this call is nearly 0 EV even if you are behind. I think it's quite likely that you are ahead though and it is equally likely that the SB will check the turn. If he fires again on the turn you can re-evaluate.