Laying down AA...

[phil_ivey_fan]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero ($23)
SB ($18.5)
BB ($29.1)
UTG ($18.13)
MP ($44.8)
CO ($29.32)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, SB (poster) folds, BB folds, MP calls $1.50, CO calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.75) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets $8</font>, Hero folds, MP folds.

Final Pot: $14.75


This guy was a rock at the table. I'd seen him fold fold fold. What would you put him on? I put him on 2pr. If he had the str8, he would have slow played, and if he had a set, he wouldn't bet sooo hard at it (unless he was super-afraid of the str8 draw). Anyway, I think it was good laydown, and plus I enjoyed cleaning him out about an hour later when I crushed his AJ (tptk) with KK.

[Kips Bay Kid]

Maybe he had AK? Not sure if I would lay it down that easy.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, SB (poster) folds, BB folds, MP calls $1.50, CO calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.75) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets $8</font>, Hero folds, MP folds.

Final Pot: $14.75


This guy was a rock at the table. I'd seen him fold fold fold. What would you put him on? I put him on 2pr. If he had the str8, he would have slow played, and if he had a set, he wouldn't bet sooo hard at it (unless he was super-afraid of the str8 draw). Anyway, I think it was good laydown, and plus I enjoyed cleaning him out about an hour later when I crushed his AJ (tptk) with KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way to lay that down is based on your read of him. He could have had AK -- you said you cleaned him out later when he stayed in with TPTK. Personally, I can't get that kind of read on any Party Poker player and would have raised him -- of course with the small size of your stacks, it would be near impossible to raise anything other than all-in. I certainly wouldn't call it a good laydown -- but if you took his money later, it all worked out in the end.

[Wayfare]

Raise more preflop. Make it $3 to go. You are letting at minimum three people draw on your AA for $1.50 more.

[phil_ivey_fan]

I like to keep my raise consistent. My standard raise at the $25NL 6 max is 2$. If I'm first to raise, its $2 period.

UNLESS I am playing at a loose table and I feel too many people are calling me w/ marginal hands...in this case I bump my standard raise to $3 and tighten my raising hands.

[phil_ivey_fan]

I took his money when he had tptk cause he place a big flop bet w/ AJ (tptk) and I raised him all-in (w/ position). He called.

I'll look for the hand history, but let's just say for now that the flop was ideal for me...

Flop was something like J|rag|rag :: rainbow
Plus it was a raised pot so I figured he (tight aggressive) wouldn't have hit two pair.

[Wayfare]

Your formula should incorporate the number of limpers as well. The preference to keeping raises consistent should not decrease your EV of your good hands, which it seems to have done here.

Also, you are assuming that PP25 players will notice when you are raising more or less. That is generally not correct. I often raise non standard amounts for deception purposes and get lots of callers. Example, you hold KK in LP and get lots of limpers, raise to $10 and someone with 66 is therefore "sure" you have AK. You wouldn't be dumb enough to raise AA/KK that much, because you are too afraid people will fold. He knows from the WPT that his 66 is a big favorite, especially with the dead money in the middle. He pushes and you stack him and move on. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[phil_ivey_fan]

haha good point.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
I took his money when he had tptk cause he place a big flop bet w/ AJ (tptk) and I raised him all-in (w/ position). He called.

I'll look for the hand history, but let's just say for now that the flop was ideal for me...

Flop was something like J|rag|rag :: rainbow
Plus it was a raised pot so I figured he (tight aggressive) wouldn't have hit two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on his play on the AJ hand (which I know is hindsight now), I am more inclined to say your laydown was not good. Yes, the KQx board is a little more dangerous than the Jxx board -- but not much.

As mentioned by others, I would have also made the raise bigger pre-flop -- you need to at least add the amounts put in by the limpers, if not more -- probably raise to between $3 and $5.

[Triumph36]

Does AK really call a raise here? That's the least likely hand of his, IMO, especially since two of the aces are already out. It's also the only likely hand that Hero is way ahead of. Still, at these levels people usually overplay AK and I would've expected a re-raise.

He's behind KQ, K9, Q9, all possible hands for poor players to have in that spot. Hands like KJ, KT, QT have several outs to beat him. And if he raises, he's pot-committed.

[Kips Bay Kid]

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Does AK really call a raise here?

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We are speculating CO is AK, the one that initially raised.

[phil_ivey_fan]

[ QUOTE ]

We are speculating CO is AK, the one that initially raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure what you are trying to say here. I'm assuming you are saying that COwould have raised w/ AK before it came to me.

1) I would have reraised.
2) This is why I didn't put him on AK. Which is why the Limp-Call and then the bet on the flop screamed of 2pr.

[Kips Bay Kid]

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We are speculating CO is AK, the one that initially raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure what you are trying to say here. I'm assuming you are saying that COwould have raised w/ AK before it came to me.

1) I would have reraised.
2) This is why I didn't put him on AK. Which is why the Limp-Call and then the bet on the flop screamed of 2pr.

[/ QUOTE ]

You confused me by not stating at which point of the hand you are referring to. If CO is not going to initially raise PF then I would assume he is not going to reraise you either unless his intention was to limp-reraise PF /images/graemlins/confused.gif

IMO you are thinking too much in laying down AA under these circumstances and I consider it a weak play with that board given the PF action (no raises before or after you, calling a $2 raise).

[Tilt]

I think its a good laydown.

AK is the only hand that this guy, given your read, could have that you have beat. Very small possibility that its KJ and he thinks you have JJ. But he also may not be slowplaying the straight or set, thinking you will give him action. He also could have AA like you with that bet.

If you were to play it I think you would need to push to give some chance that he would lay it down. If hes tight enough hell put you on a set. But given what happened later when he called tptk its a good thing you didnt.

[phil_ivey_fan]

[ QUOTE ]
I consider it a weak play with that board given the PF action (no raises before or after you, calling a $2 raise).

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider it harder to play post flop because of the preflop action. K9, Q9, KQ are very likely hands to limp and call a raise.

[Kips Bay Kid]

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I consider it a weak play with that board given the PF action (no raises before or after you, calling a $2 raise).

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider it harder to play post flop because of the preflop action. K9, Q9, KQ are very likely hands to limp and call a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQ is the only hand I would be worried about, I think it is equally weak (from the villain's standpoint) to not raise PF with AK or KQ for that matter as it is to call a raise with K9 or Q9 let alone limp into a pot with it. Unless you have a very good read on him, I do not lay this down, looks like he is trying to buy the pot right here - and it looks like he succeeded. What about AQs or A9s - there are lots of hands I could put him on.

[Triumph36]

Buy what pot? He overbet a small pot against short stacks. There's no room to manuever. If a player plays like this consistently, they will get themselves broken.

You're right about CO, but what player doesn't raise pre-flop with AK? Or AQ? or even A9? This looks a lot more like KQ, K9 or Q9, or even KJ or KT. Hero was either somewhat ahead or far behind. He's only put $2 into the pot. Let other players overplay their AA on this kind of flop and go broke.

[Tilt]

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I consider it a weak play with that board given the PF action (no raises before or after you, calling a $2 raise).

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider it harder to play post flop because of the preflop action. K9, Q9, KQ are very likely hands to limp and call a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQ is the only hand I would be worried about, I think it is equally weak (from the villain's standpoint) to not raise PF with AK or KQ for that matter as it is to call a raise with K9 or Q9 let alone limp into a pot with it. Unless you have a very good read on him, I do not lay this down, looks like he is trying to buy the pot right here - and it looks like he succeeded. What about AQs or A9s - there are lots of hands I could put him on.

[/ QUOTE ]

The read was that he was a rock. A rock does not go around betting 1.5X the pot into the flop out of position. Hes not buying that pot.