Scumbag Poker Staking

[Gata Kamsky]

What do you tell a person whom you staked for some money for 50% of the profit at a session, then lose it all but put up some of their money and win back your money and then say they don't want to pay you back because they put up their money in that session too? Eventually they lost it all which I was happy to see even though I lost my money but I really want to let them have it as it's been a while and they deserve to be put in their place?

[whiskeytown]

tell him to go to hell and stop staking him.

RB

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I don't understand. Why should they pay you back? You made a deal with them, and the deal ended when they lost the stake you put up. The fact that they then went on to win with their own money has no relationship to the deal they made with you.

I mean, if they had quit that game, come back the next day with their own money, and booked a big win, would you feel they owed you any of that win? It's the same thing, only instead of going home, sleeping for a night, and then winning, they did it without bothering to leave the table for a night's sleep first.

I think you need to learn more about staking players, or quit doing it.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you tell a person whom you staked for some money for 50% of the profit at a session, then lose it all but put up some of their money and win back your money and then say they don't want to pay you back because they put up their money in that session too? Eventually they lost it all which I was happy to see even though I lost my money but I really want to let them have it as it's been a while and they deserve to be put in their place?

[/ QUOTE ]
Was the deal as poorly worded as your post? I'm still trying to figure out that first sentence...

[Regulator]

I don't think that example is quite the same. The player could have used the stake as fuel for a certain kind of table image, and used his own money to reap the benefits afterwards. The same players might not be there day after day to consider this as the same session. It's hard to say that the original stake had zero bearing on the eventual winnings.

I'll admit that I don't know a lot about staking either, but what prevents someone from doing something like I mentioned? I do agree, though, that this person should have made a better and more explicitly worded deal with the player.

[jakethebake]

Don't stake scumbags, or people you don't know well.

[dakine]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that example is quite the same. The player could have used the stake as fuel for a certain kind of table image, and used his own money to reap the benefits afterwards. The same players might not be there day after day to consider this as the same session. It's hard to say that the original stake had zero bearing on the eventual winnings.

I'll admit that I don't know a lot about staking either, but what prevents someone from doing something like I mentioned? I do agree, though, that this person should have made a better and more explicitly worded deal with the player.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming the deal was not the same as Raymers. The poster should explain specifictly what the deal was before flaming off and seeking sympathy.

[krazyace5]

You better have 100% trust if you are going to stake someone, there are too many ways to get burned otherwise.

[Gata Kamsky]

Sorry, let me explain better - This person is a good player he just has never played in a real poker room, just in a home game I frequent. The only reason he went to this poker club was because I put up money for half his profit. He had some bad beats lost my money, then put up a small portion of his money, and won a large amount. What I am saying is simply that is it not wrong for him not want to pay me back considering the deal was 50% of his profit at this session, the fact he put up his money is irrelevant in my eyes as the only reason he is here is I put up the money, we had a deal for 50% of his profit at this place tonight - it wasn't worded as 50% of the profit with my money. Thirdly, I've been really nice to this person as I've given him forgiveness of debts - we played headsup for 2k and I won, he didn't have the money but while I was playing on stars in the 100-200, I won about 20k while he was around in my room for a good couple of hours watching me play. So I told him to forget the debt. It just seems this person doesn't appreciate what a deal is, or have any respect for someone's word.

[dakine]

So this person is a sort of a semi-friend with no conscience. Does that sound about right? I learned my lesson many years ago. Never!, lend money to Anyone!, especially if you're playing in the same game. (i.e. craps, poker, BJ) because you are playing against your own money. I've done it twice, and got burned once.

The first time, I got my money back but it took several months.

The second time in one of our floating crap games (vice was chasing us around town) I floated a loan to a so called friend because he was losing his butt. Several hours after the game I was declared the big "Winner." I reminded my friend about the loan and his reply was, "since you came out the big winner, you got your money back from me." After a few choice words and several weeks later no repayment. His punishment..., he was banned from every game in town, even if he had the cash. He tried to start up his own games, but was warned by "Da Boys," that he would get his butt kicked. His gambling days was over, and his wife was was very happy. Eventually he moved out of town. I was never repaid. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[MrDannimal]

It's pretty simple. We don't know the exact deal you hammered out with this guy. Possible options:

- Stake for 50% of potential profits from the entire session
- Stake for 50% of potential profits until stake is gone. If that happens mid-session, then nothing is owed.

There are probably more. Even if *WE* knew exactly what you believed the deal to be, we don't know what the guy being staked thought the deal was. He may have thought it was the second option while you thought it was the first. If that's the case, nobody is wrong.

My thoughts:

Try to cover all possible results while setting the deal. You were obviously around while he was playing, so you could have talked to him when he rebought. "How does this affect our deal?" might have helped.

In the end though, anytime you give anyone money, with or without a deal, you risk not getting paid back. You need to carefully consider who you give money to.

[youtalkfunny]

It seems clear to me that the deal was, "Here, sit down with my money. If you win, we split the profit. If you lose, it's on me."

It seems equally clear to me that when the last of your chips was gone, the deal was consummated.

Now if YOU had bought him more chips at this point, the deal remains in place, and you get a cut of the win.

But you didn't. YOU OPTED OUT.

[dogmeat]

You can't put him in his place. He already scammed you out of whatever you staked him. Who's the loser here? You even went on tilt and wanted him to lose what he had left. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[jakethebake]

You staked a guys first trip to a cardroom based on how he does in your homegame?

[sfer]

Greg's point is that a standard arrangement is for the amount of the stake. That's it. The staker does not have recourse to any other money belonging to the stakee. This is common in lending. Can't pay your mortgage? Give the bank your house and g'bye.

[dakine]

Wanna lose family and friends? Lend them money, especially if it's a large amount. When they don't/can't pay you back, they avoid you.

Quote:Alas! how deeply painful is all payment!
Lord Byron (1788-1824), English poet. Don Juan, cto. 10, st. 79. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
The player could have used the stake as fuel for a certain kind of table image, and used his own money to reap the benefits afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a little due diligence is in order before you stake players. I hope someone would not stake (stake does not mean loan) a player without understanding their character.

[dakine]

(stake does not mean loan)

Semantics. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
(stake does not mean loan)

Semantics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is the interpretation of a word. Just by saying semantics does not mean that it is minor. That is not the definition of "semantics". Stake is being interpreted as a business transaction where if a person loses the money, he is still responsible to pay. That is only the case if it was originally agreed to. If it was a loan, repayment would be implied.

[dakine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(stake does not mean loan)

Semantics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is the interpretation of a word. Just by saying semantics does not mean that it is minor. That is not the definition of "semantics". Stake is being interpreted as a business transaction where if a person loses the money, he is still responsible to pay. That is only the case if it was originally agreed to. If it was a loan, repayment would be implied.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ho-Hum! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you tell a person whom you staked for some money for 50% of the profit at a session, then lose it all but put up some of their money and win back your money and then say they don't want to pay you back because they put up their money in that session too?

[/ QUOTE ]


I tell them, "Hey I staked you for 50% of the profits of the session, then you lose it all but then you put up some more of your own money and you won back my money that you lost previously when you were playing with my money earlier so you shouldn't say you don't want to pay me back my money because you put up your money in that session too because you should be saying that you should be happy that I staked you my money and you should now be willing to pay me back what was originally my money because without me staking you to try out the game you would not have won the money back that I initially staked you to so it is really a show of good-faith for you to pay me back what was previously my money because you know that I would do the same for you if the situation were reversed because you know that your money would be more safer with me to play and after I took the same bad-beats that you did in this hypothetical situation and then bought in again with my own money then I would be telling you that I was very thankful that you got me into this game and don't worry I will get your money back but instead when the situation was reversed, as it was, you refused to pay me back my money by pretending that our original deal was off when you lost the original money that I staked you with to get into the game in the first place."



OR.....
I just say
"note to self....stop staking/loaning money to people."


I have NEVER staked/loaned money to someone.
Not coincidentally, I have never run into problems such as what you are so ineptly trying to describe.

[jakethebake]

Just kick his a*s.

[theBruiser500]

take a baseball bat to his ugly goddamed face

[Trainwreck]

Ouch, he asks for a stake, loses, then plays with HIS $?
WTF, I think I'd want to punch him out, no words necessary.

>TW<

[Talk2BigSteve]

I would not have loaned anyone any money, PERIOD!!! There is one simple question that I believe will fix this problem. Just ask yourself, "If the bank won't give him the money, why should I?"

Living, Learning, and Laughing.
Big Steve /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[MMMMMM]

Why don't you just play him blitz chess for the disputed amount? You'll win it back and put him in his place at the same time!

[collegeplayer1]

with your penis...