Mirage 5-10 Omaha8: Why not bet the river

For the record, I have never played Omaha 8 or better. However, I have considered playing the game to give myself more options when I'm at the Vegas cardrooms.


While hanging out at the Mirage this afternoon, I witnessed a friend play this hand.


Based on my limited knowledge of the game, it seemed most of my friend's opponents were very poor. Many were showing down hands like Jd,8c,7c,2h and winning the high with two-pair.


My friend is in early postion holding Ac3d5s9c and limps. Three more players play their hands and the flop is seen four-handed.


The flop is: Kc,Qc,5c


That's quite a flop. He's got the nut flush and bottom pair.


My friend bets and gets one caller.


The turn is: Kc,Qc,5c,5d


Now he has trips to boot.


He bets and gets called.


The river is: Kc,Qc,5c,5d,3s


Now he has a full-house. My friend checks and it gets checked by the other player. I didn't ask him why he checked.


Do you think this was a good situation to go for a river checkraise against a smaller flush? Or, with a paired board, is it reasonable to be suspect of a bigger full-house?

The flop was great for the hand (flopped nut flush, 2nd low if it comes). Although the turn made a set for your friend, it could make a full house for his opponent. What, after all, did the opponent stay around with on the flop and on the turn?


You commented that the other players in the game were staying with some trashy hands (J872). Assume one of them stayed with Q952 (big blind, for example). On the river, he's getting the money.


On the river, in many games (especially in Vegas) you're **not** going to be called unless you're beat -- after all, you have 5's full of 3's. There are many hands that will beat you. Not knowing the other players his check (on the river) is reasonable.


-- Russ Fox

I was the one playing the hand.


I was sitting next to a friend who plays in the Mirage 5-10 Kill O/8 game for a living. FWIW, he said afterwards that there is no way I can bet the river. His thinking was that since I have the nut flush and the guy called the turn when the board paired and the low draw was dead, it is hard to see him calling the river with a small flush. If I keep betting. I will however get called and frequently raised by a bigger full house, and every single full house is a bigger full house. Filling up really didn't improve me since the difference between the nut flush and the smallest full house is zero. Therefore you check to get a worse hand to bet, and to avoid getting raised. Few to zero worse hands will call a river bet.


I freely admit that I am a rank novice (about 20 hours of O8 ) in this game, so it is important to note that what I typed above is what he told me afterwards and not my thoughts. But he makes a lot of sense. I guess thats why he's able to pay the bills from this game.

"Do you think this was a good situation to go for a river checkraise against a smaller flush?"


No!


"Or, with a paired board, is it reasonable to be suspect of a bigger full-house?"


Either a bigger full house or a missed full house. Your friend has to decide if his opponent would call a river bet with a flush, or a straight, 3-3-X-X, 5-X-X-X or A-A-X-X or not.


I think I would have tended to bet the hand on the river. Why? The river was a three. There is hardly any way the three could have helped your friend's opponent more than it helped your friend. If your friend's opponent had a higher full house, he/she probably would have raised on the turn. The call on the turn looks most like 5-X-X-X, hoping to make a full house on the river (but could logically be some other hands as well).


Just my opinion.


Buzz

"every single full house is a bigger full house."


3-3-X-X?


"Therefore you check to get a worse hand to bet, and to avoid getting raised."


Reasonable.


"Few to zero worse hands will call a river bet."


Really? Don't you think it kind of depends on the player?


Just my opinion.


Buzz

Bottom pair as well as bottom two pair is pretty worhless in this game.


Trips are much worse than having a set (where the pair is in your hand as opposed to on the board). When the board pairs expect to run into full houses and quads.


The bet on the turn is made to try and drop your opponent. At this point there is no low and your opponent has to wonder whether you have been betting a hand like pocket kings or queens. When he calls you have to give him credit for some hand.


I wouldn't bet the river either. You are only likely to get called by hands that beat yours. Your opponent could easily have been playing a hand like A 2 5 Q or A 2 5 K and backed into a weak full house. As Buzz says if he had pocket K or Q you would likely be raised on the turn.


I think your friend played the hand correctly. (But I'm only a student, not an expert.)

With a flop of all one suit, with K & Q and your buddy having the Ace, I'd think the caller had a J to the flush in his hand or maybe trip K/Q or both. Heads up, when the board paired the low card on the turn, (back door lows killed now) I may have just check/called. Bet worked out well and when it wasn't raised, your friend had a clear winner. With no raise on the turn, I'd go ahead and bet the river.