Flopped SB flush

[Chaostracize]

I want to preface this by saying I am horrible at poker.



Now, some information leading up to the hand.


The villain in question is a horrendous LAG. Will play any two cards for $2. (This is 100 max nl at TS). About 10 hands ago he limped with QQ from MP after a few limpers and the button moved in for 150. After a minute's deliberation he calls and crushes button's JJ. He is now at approximately 400.


About 7 hands ago, I make a big move against the button from the last hand. All in bluff on the turn with bottom pair. After 2 minute's deliberation button calls and I overestimated the amount of respect I would recieve. My read was right on, he was weak. But strong enough to call me with 3rd pair. He has T /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif on a J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif board. I had A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I keep forgetting that there is NO outplaying people on max 100. Whole table sees my hand.

I make 80 back a couple hands later from same guy, and I'm sitting with 250 when the hand in question comes up.




I'm in the SB with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. There are 5 limpers and I complete. BB checks. 7 to the flop.

I check in the dark. I've done this all night when I've completed in the SB or I'm first to act as BB.

Flop is A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Checks around to CO (no read on this player) who bets $25 into the $14 dollar pot.

Action to me and I check-raise to $75. Tell me what you think of this check-raise.

Folds to villain, who has me covered and he goes all in. CO folds, disgusted, and I see the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif flash. This is probably irrelevant, but I'm assuming he hit broadway.

Action is now to me and I have about $175 left and there's $14 in the pot, plus CO's $25, plus my $75, meaning I'd be calling $175 to win $289. Muck this?

[bugstud]

um, why? They think you're nuts and you have a flush.

[Chaostracize]

n/m

[Triumph36]

I don't understand checking in the dark in general, because here it put you in a difficult spot. I'm not so sure I understand the check-raise either. But yeah, you have to call this. You're behind two flushes. He might have you beat, but wouldn't he make this play with QT or JJ or two pair? Your hand is good here often enough to call.

[Chaostracize]

I like the dark-check personally because it takes (falsely) creates a crazy table image. It can make people make some bad decisions, too.

In this case, I would have checked this flop anyway. I would gain nothing from betting out, then getting raised. At least by check-raising I can see where I stand right away.

[Triumph36]

Do you really need a crazy table image at the TS 100 to get paid off? I've played there a few times, image doesn't seem to accomplish much.

I don't like a check raise on this play because it enables someone to get away from their hand, but I suppose what happened is that Villain also check-raised all in. If he's that horrendous a LAG, I'd put him on the naked Q of spades and call. He checked hoping to draw a free card, but he's got a draw to the nuts, and he sounds like he's not a very good LAG so he figures he can get both of you to fold if he moves it all in.

If you lead out on this flop you might've trapped a lot more money in the center. Letting this flop get checked through could be extremely dangerous.

[Chaostracize]

The reason I don't like leading out, is once I get one caller I could very easily get about 4 others all thinking their getting their odds to make whatever hand they want (including a T or Q high flush).

I don't mind defining my hand here with the checkraise. The thing I'd do anything with that is check-raise the minimum so I don't psychologically commit myself to this pot. I think even check-calling wouldn't be absolutely horrendous, and let one more card come, making sure it's not another spade, before I get the money in to give even worse odds.

The naked Q here would soak up a lot of money to see another card to see if he could hit the nuts. That's why I like seeing one more card before I put a lot of money in.

[Chaostracize]

Ok, so no one thinks I should have folded. At least that's what I'm assuming.

I call and he says "you're toast, buddy", and flips up Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

I hate poker.

[Wayfare]

I call here every time against LAGs. Kudos to him for pushing, but shame on him for taunting you.

[Triumph36]

No, I don't fold there, and I'm not sure how you can possibly get away. From the tone of your post, I got the sense you lost. He played this hand very unconventionally. You defined your hand with the check-raise and I think he knew you'd call an all-in bet. Even if you do lead out on the flop, he probably flat-calls or raises all in, and if he flat-calls, you push on a blank and all the money goes in on the turn.

Anyone like folding this hand pre-flop? I know it's a suited one-gapper and I'd call here too, but I really hate playing them on flops like this. Considering your position, you're a lot more likely to get stacked than stack someone yourself.

[Kips Bay Kid]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone like folding this hand pre-flop? I know it's a suited one-gapper and I'd call here too, but I really hate playing them on flops like this. Considering your position, you're a lot more likely to get stacked than stack someone yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not from SB, it's worth it to complete.

[willie24]

i would call

[Chaostracize]

It's not the move I want to know. It's the thought process.

In retrospect, I don't think even the laggiest of opponents could have the cojones to check-re-raise somebody. That just shows too much strength in a position like this.

It can't be a complete bluff. The absolute best I could hope for is a hand with the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif and an offsuit T. There is no other hand that would make as big of a bet as this.

A hand like AK or AJ wouldn't check when almost last to act. Especially a LAGgy opponent. I think I can rule out AA and KK because I don't think this opponent would limp in such a late position with that hand. TT is a bigger possibility, but like I said earlier with AK and AJ, this hand just couldn't afford giving a free card.

Even a made flush lower than the nut would bet out here. MAYBE the T high flush might check, thinking if he had a hand like T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, that it was unlikely someone was slowplaying an already made Q high flush, having a very uncoordinated preflop hand, and very few spades left to help out a naked Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

A hand like 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif would almost CERTAINLY bet out because it could not afford any spade coming out, or the board pairing.

Am I overthinking this hand?

In retrospect I wish I had thought as much about it then as I am now, getting 1.6(ish)-1 on my call is not all that great.

[Triumph36]

I think you are right to say that any hand that makes the move he does is going to have the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif . It just depends on whether it's a bluff with just the Q of spades or not. Would he check through with a draw to the nuts? Probably not. He'd bet out, because he'd know his action would freeze up if he hit the fourth spade. Ideally with a flush and straight draw he'd like to get it all in right there on the flop, so a check seems out of character for just the naked Q spades.

Still a difficult hand to get away from. Again, I think check-raising really put you in the center here, but there's almost no scenario I can think of where the money doesn't end up in the middle, not against a LAG, even though the way he played it shouted that he had the nuts or a draw to them. If you bet out and got raised by him, you'd probably move it all in.