Penalties To Use During Home Games?

[grandgnu]

Hello all. I run a small home game of up to 16 players a couple of times per month. Some players who know better have been violating certain rules or just conducting themselves with poor poker etiquette. I'm not sure what I should implement as a system to punish and discourage their behavoir.

Common problems are:

1. Splashing the pot when they've been reminded over and over about this.

2. I have a player who will delay the showdown, often refusing to turn over all his cards trying to see what his opponent has first. He'll also deliberately misread and lower the strength of his hand at the showdown, which is REALLY odd.

A few examples

ANNOYING PLAYER: "Oh, I just have two pair"

OTHER PLAYER: *turns over higher two pair*

ANNOYING PLAYER: "Oh, actually....I had a full house" *turns over last card to reveal boat.

EXAMPLE 2

ANNOYING PLAYER: "Oh, I just have a pair of Kings"

OTHER PLAYER: "I have two pair"

ANNOYING PLAYER: "Oh, actually, I have two pair" *turns over 2nd pair to beat opponent*

We play "cards speak for themselves" so he can use this tactic just to put people on tilt.

Obviously this is really ticking off my other players, especially since this annoying player is doing VERY well at my home game. While I've warned him at the games, I also just sent him an email letting him know he's going to scare away the other players who've proven very profitable for him this year. I also let him know that he's been warned enough and any further infractions will result in penalties as yet to be determined.

In the past he had been caught splashing the pot with less chips than the actual bet he was calling (caught twice in one night) and was told that while it was slightly amusing, his crazy antics, there was money involved and it wasn't cool or acceptable.

Now he's been caught numerous times tonight trying to get away with not putting his ante into the pot. I'm really frustrated with him and want to put him on some sort of probation where if he doesn't shape up he'll no longer be welcome back. And this is a buddy I went to high school with too, which sucks, but he needs to learn.

Anyway, does anyone have ideas for possible penalties. Here's what I'm thinking right now (to apply across the board to everyone, this particular guy is already on my [censored] list)

FIRST OFFENSE: Verbal Warning

SECOND OFFENSE: You must sit out for 5 minutes while still posting any antes/forced bets, and then fold every hand you receive during this time.

THIRD OFFENSE: Sit out for 10 minutes while posting forced bets/antes and folding all hands.

FOURTH OFFENSE: Ejection from current tournament with no refund given and no prize money awarded (even if player is already in the money). Player will be suspended from the next two events and upon return will be on probation. Any further violations after that will result in a 3-month suspension and after that a ban from all events for a year or perhaps indefinite. Any moneys they would have won during the tournament they're ejected from will be awarded evenly amongst the other players in the money.

[TenPercenter]

I'm sorry if I'm blunt, but it seems to me you're being anal about much of this. Most of the "annoying" things are just that, and if he's doing it to tilt players, apparently it's working in his favor. And a "Four Step Penalty System" seems really childish to me. I had a player once that annoyed everyone, and after a while I just had to ask him not to come any more.

As for cheating the pot, especially since he's been caught numerous times, UNINVITE HIM. PERIOD. No warnings, no hand slaps, just tell him not to come back! Friend or not, he's a cheat. In fact, if he's cheating his friends, he's not really a friend.

Ten

[Stork]

It sounds like this guys a real jackass...

Why do you let him play?

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry if I'm blunt, but it seems to me you're being anal about much of this. Most of the "annoying" things are just that, and if he's doing it to tilt players, apparently it's working in his favor. And a "Four Step Penalty System" seems really childish to me. I had a player once that annoyed everyone, and after a while I just had to ask him not to come any more.

As for cheating the pot, especially since he's been caught numerous times, UNINVITE HIM. PERIOD. No warnings, no hand slaps, just tell him not to come back! Friend or not, he's a cheat. In fact, if he's cheating his friends, he's not really a friend.

Ten

[/ QUOTE ]

Being blunt is fine, I appreciate your advice. I might be being anal, but I want to keep my game alive and run as fairly as possible. I had a problem a couple of years back with a guy who had won three events in row and people were getting mighty suspicious. We prevented him from taking his fourth win in a row because he was out of the hand and we all moved all-in and one of us got enough chips to beat him. He was pissed and complained, even though he had already won a bunch of money off us previously and wasn't losing that night.

It was a rough time, and I'd like to keep things fun for everyone. Back then we only had 4-6 players at most, now I get 8-12, even up to 16 regularly. I want to keep people coming back.

You make good points about his cheating ways. He won't be getting a four-step program, but I had been too lenient in allowing his antics to propogate. I will inform him in no uncertain terms that he will now be watched like a hawk, and even ONE misstep will result in a ban from our events.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like this guys a real jackass...

Why do you let him play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, he's entertaining as all hell, funny guy. But "Ten" made a good point about him cheating friends and such. He's going to be made to realize the seriousness of this situation and his current status.

[TenPercenter]

The gist I get is that losing this guy is the end of the game. Is that right? I can't see another reason to keep him around...

Ten

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
The gist I get is that losing this guy is the end of the game. Is that right? I can't see another reason to keep him around...

Ten

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not at all. Losing him would not hurt the game. I think I've been too lenient in not applying any penalties for his actions, thus enabling him in a way. I understand your feelings about booting him completely.

Like I said, I'll inform him that he's on probation now (since there were no guidelines about this stuff before as far as penalties go) and even ONE infraction, deliberate or accidental, within the next three events will result in removal from the tournament and suspension from future events.

[Fins]

It does sound like not inviting him may be the way to go but I know how it goes. If you're all good friends or HS buddies then I would elect other ways to go... screw up do a shot prepared by the others at the table. Some friends of mine have a rule "Screw a deal face the wheel" which is a roulette like wheel with various penalties on it e.g. drink of choice is definitely a bad one (a tabasco/whiskey/jager/vodka shot or the even worse "lets go see what's in the frige" shot are not good). The "face the wheel" is often brought up when we're out for the night and is frequently done spinning a beer bottle and using off the cuff penalties on slips of paper/napkins. Usually the "wheel" is brought out anytime someone screws up and a rhyme can be made with wheel. Could do break a rule become Table Gopher for an hour (could be on the wheel)... cheat a pot, pay to a bad beat jackpot although this is definitely a don't come back for repeat offenders. The lamer annoying stuff could also be thrown back at him. I'd lean toward the call it out and make it embarrassing/unpleasant route.

Just some thougts,
Fins

[chesspain]

This so-called buddy of yours is a dickhead and a cheat. I can't even imagine why you still allow him to play. That's right, why you allow him. It's your game and you seem to have enough players to keep this game going. Just stop inviting him.

[SCfuji]

i agree. you cheat you never play again. i might even be inclined to punch him in the face.

[Kaz The Original]

Are you dumb? He CHEATED THE POT. He's ANNOYING. AND HE'S WINNING.

All good reasons to boot him.

[grandgnu]

Thanks to everyone for their posts and advice. Yes, you are right, he is a cheat and a liar. And this is a rough situation. I think Fin understands as far as that goes, when it's someone you've grown up with.

But I also definitely see the points of everyone else about kicking his ass and booting him from the game. How many times has he cheated us that we didn't catch?

At this time he's been informed he is now on probation (maybe even "double-secret probation" *smirk*)

Essentially just ONE misstep will result in him being booted from my events, even if it's an honest mistake. We'll be watching him like a hawk and we'll go from there.

It was partly my fault for not having a system in place to penalize his actions. Any form of cheating can be tempting if it's easy enough to get away with. How many times have you all caught yourselves catching a glimpse of the bottom card of a deck, or perhaps a player near you didn't protect his hand well enough when looking at his cards?

Those are forms of "cheating" as well, and it can be tempting to take the info or the advantage and run. Since he hasn't been penalized before and I've known him for most of my life I'll give him ONE chance, and that's it. Any missteps and he's gone.

[dfscott]

I think official penalties are not the way to go with this guy -- you need a face-to-face sit down. I noticed you said you warned him at the game and warned him via e-mail. My guess is that the game warnings were something fairly low-key along the lines of "hey man, you can't do that -- that's not cool." I don't think talks like this are very effective, but I know that no one wants to make a scene at their game -- it crimps everyone's mirth.

I'm curious what his response was to your e-mail. I think that could say a lot about his attitude towards the game, because that is key. If he thinks that "it's only just a low-stakes game" and "it's no big deal," he needs to get a clue. It's like stealing a pack of gum -- sure it's less than a buck, but it's still stealing.

He may think it's funny -- that "getting away with it" is part of the game. Again, he needs to be clued in.

The final possibility (which I hope, for your sake, is not true since it seems that this is a good friend), is that he doesn't give a [censored]. He does whatever it takes to win. If this is a case, nothing you say will make him change his ways. Even if he decides to tone it down (to avoid running off the fish), you'll always be wondering. This will create bad feelings over time, even if he's never caught.

In my opinion, this is a judgement call you're going to have to make. Is this a good guy who's just not taking things serious enough? If so, have a sit down (face-to-face, not e-mail) and lay it out. Talk to him the same way you'd talk to a friend who you thought had a drug or alcohol problem.

If you get blown off or he doesn't take it seriously, you need to stop inviting him, since it's obvious he doesn't respect you enough to respect your rules, and if that's the case, you'll lose him as a friend (if you haven't already).

If the fact is that he just doesn't understand the gravity of his actions, and he is properly contrite, then you might considering allowing him to continue playing. Obviously, you would have to be clear that none of his suspect behavior will be tolerated. You need to tell him that others are aware of his cheating and that he needs to be careful to avoid even the appearance of unethical play. He can still be funny, just don't do it at the expense of others. But you can't allow him to continue because he will destroy the game -- people are willing to lose their money if they think they're just losing. If they even expect that it's due to cheating, they will quit coming (since everyone would prefer to think that they are a great player that just got cheated).

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I think official penalties are not the way to go with this guy -- you need a face-to-face sit down. I noticed you said you warned him at the game and warned him via e-mail. My guess is that the game warnings were something fairly low-key along the lines of "hey man, you can't do that -- that's not cool." I don't think talks like this are very effective, but I know that no one wants to make a scene at their game -- it crimps everyone's mirth.

I'm curious what his response was to your e-mail. I think that could say a lot about his attitude towards the game, because that is key. If he thinks that "it's only just a low-stakes game" and "it's no big deal," he needs to get a clue. It's like stealing a pack of gum -- sure it's less than a buck, but it's still stealing.

He may think it's funny -- that "getting away with it" is part of the game. Again, he needs to be clued in.

The final possibility (which I hope, for your sake, is not true since it seems that this is a good friend), is that he doesn't give a [censored]. He does whatever it takes to win. If this is a case, nothing you say will make him change his ways. Even if he decides to tone it down (to avoid running off the fish), you'll always be wondering. This will create bad feelings over time, even if he's never caught.

In my opinion, this is a judgement call you're going to have to make. Is this a good guy who's just not taking things serious enough? If so, have a sit down (face-to-face, not e-mail) and lay it out. Talk to him the same way you'd talk to a friend who you thought had a drug or alcohol problem.

If you get blown off or he doesn't take it seriously, you need to stop inviting him, since it's obvious he doesn't respect you enough to respect your rules, and if that's the case, you'll lose him as a friend (if you haven't already).

If the fact is that he just doesn't understand the gravity of his actions, and he is properly contrite, then you might considering allowing him to continue playing. Obviously, you would have to be clear that none of his suspect behavior will be tolerated. You need to tell him that others are aware of his cheating and that he needs to be careful to avoid even the appearance of unethical play. He can still be funny, just don't do it at the expense of others. But you can't allow him to continue because he will destroy the game -- people are willing to lose their money if they think they're just losing. If they even expect that it's due to cheating, they will quit coming (since everyone would prefer to think that they are a great player that just got cheated).

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people for awhile found his antics amusing and entertaining. But they have progressed to annoying and distracting towards the game. And even if the ante is only a 25 dollar tourney chip (we start with 2000 chips) that adds up over the course of a few hundred hands and becomes a fairly significant amount.

Whether he's cheating us out of a 25 tourney chip or cheating us out of a 500 tourney chip, it's all cheating in the end. I have not received a response from him as of yet. If he trys to blow this off then I'll toss him right then and there. I consider this extremely SERIOUS, and while I think everyone else is correct that I should toss him out, I will give him one chance to correct his ways. He plays with other buddies of mine from time to time, and he probably gets away with it then too.

[NeverFold]

I didn't read every post, but it sounds like you need to write out some official rules for your game. I have a whole section concerning etiquette. (sp?)

I also have an official rule that states:

If you are caught cheating, management (myself and 2 friends) reserves the right to beat the s**t out of you.

Tim

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't read every post, but it sounds like you need to write out some official rules for your game. I have a whole section concerning etiquette. (sp?)

I also have an official rule that states:

If you are caught cheating, management (myself and 2 friends) reserves the right to beat the s**t out of you.

Tim

[/ QUOTE ]

I had official rules, just didn't have any penalty system to impose anything on rule breakers. And I'm not looking to turn my home game into a violent mobfest, that will hamper attendance even further. Anyone cheating will likely be booted from the tournament and lose any rights they had to the prize pool, including their entry fee (i.e. no refunds). This will depend upon the believed intent of their actions and prior history with us.

[NeverFold]

Well I never had to actually enforce the cheating rule. All new players in my game have to read the rules and agree before playing. It just makes me feel better knowing that rule was acknowledged by everyone and may have stopped some potential cheating.

[2planka]

Grandgnu,

I also think the dealer has some responsibility here. The dealer should assure that blinds and antes are posted before dealing out the cards. This may help with the ante issue.

As for splashing, you have a rule against that, and time penalties are one remedy.

Was the offender intentionally slow rolling his called hands or was he just misreading his hand? Generally, the player whose bet was called has to show first. This is both a rule and an etiquette issue. Explain it before the start of your next event. In fact, maybe take a minute or two to review your house rules before the start of each tourney.

Seems that the ante issue is the bigger problem. Work with your dealers to enforce posting blinds/antes.

[MIKSEN]

I dont know about all the probation, or whatever penalty structure you are trying to impose, but it's very likely your "Buddy" is cheating in more than just splashing light into the pot, I would be rather careful hes not marking cards or any other form of cheating..

Once a cheater is identified he's got to go.. Not after a warning or probation he's got to leave before 9 other players can get up from the table and whoop him for cheating against his buddies...

Just my 2 cents

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know about all the probation, or whatever penalty structure you are trying to impose, but it's very likely your "Buddy" is cheating in more than just splashing light into the pot, I would be rather careful hes not marking cards or any other form of cheating..

Once a cheater is identified he's got to go.. Not after a warning or probation he's got to leave before 9 other players can get up from the table and whoop him for cheating against his buddies...

Just my 2 cents

[/ QUOTE ]

I use KEM cards and check them to avoid the markings and such. His cheating (that was caught anyway) were little bits here and there (i.e. put 50 chips into a pot when the bet was really 150, or skip out on a 25 ante) but that certainly adds up over time.

The penalty system is in place to penalize players for not following proper poker procedure and etiquette. Since sometimes mistakes can happen or players may just be new to the game. Just because someone splashed the pot or missed an ante doesn't mean they're a cheater (although in this kids case he certainly is) so my new system is designed to penalize people so that they'll learn from their mistakes instead of me just constantly warning them.

I still haven't heard back from this kid about this issue, and if I don't hear from him then I will remove him completely. But I'm giving him once chance to play right. I feel like a battered wife who calls the cops but then doesn't want her husband to go to jail (I love him, but he beats me, but I love him) *sigh*

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Grandgnu,

I also think the dealer has some responsibility here. The dealer should assure that blinds and antes are posted before dealing out the cards. This may help with the ante issue.

As for splashing, you have a rule against that, and time penalties are one remedy.

Was the offender intentionally slow rolling his called hands or was he just misreading his hand? Generally, the player whose bet was called has to show first. This is both a rule and an etiquette issue. Explain it before the start of your next event. In fact, maybe take a minute or two to review your house rules before the start of each tourney.

Seems that the ante issue is the bigger problem. Work with your dealers to enforce posting blinds/antes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The offender was indeed slow rolling his hands intentionally. Normally someone would declare they have a straight or flush or whatever in an attempt to get another player to muck a better hand (i.e. the offender missed their flush or straight but was representing it, announces but doesn't show it, and their opponent mucks and without showing the "winning" hand they grab the pot)

What this offender was doing was announcing a weaker hand than he had so that others would show down their cards instead of mucking them, and then he'd come out and reveal he actually had a better hand. It was really ticking people off and he's had a habit in the past of playing around and slowing down showdowns.

As far as the ante issue, you're right that the dealer has some responsibility there. The problem is that this particular player didn't "forget" THAT many friggin' times. He was obviously trying to get away with it by the number of times it happened and tried to pass it off as a joke and one of his wacky antics like usual. While he's normally funny and entertaining, we shouldn't all have to babysit him EVERY hand to ensure he's putting the right amount in.

I haven't heard back from him yet, and if he doesn't respond to my email about this issue I'll take everyones advice here and boot him from my games.

[jalsing]

My rule is if the dealer (which is usually me) doesn't see and confirm a bet, it didn't happen. I also conveniently don't "see" when people splash the pot, so that player must repost the bet or fold.

I don't have too many pot splashers anyomore...

[italianstang]

Splashing the pot is something you have to deal with I suppose. Slow rolling, such as the two pair, oh wait I have a full house, is punished in our game by dragging the player in the backyard and beating the sh*t out of him with an aluminum bat. It is very effective.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Splashing the pot is something you have to deal with I suppose. Slow rolling, such as the two pair, oh wait I have a full house, is punished in our game by dragging the player in the backyard and beating the sh*t out of him with an aluminum bat. It is very effective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, see, I'm only a quarter Italian, so I try to avoid the household violence. I want my game to be fun, just not killer. *smirk*

Considering how profitable my events have been for this kid, he'll be an idiot to pass up any chance he has to make things right. I have plenty of dead money and this offender is a pretty good player, despite his past infractions.

[dfscott]

The consistent message I'm picking up is that everyone hates cheaters, slow-rollers, and many other types of angle-shooters (understandably, I might add). However, unless one of you has actually followed through on your "beat the sh*t out of him" comments and found it to be an effective way of dealing with it (and I hope that's not the case), these comments aren't particuarly helpful.

I imagine the truth is that everyone considers this to be totally unacceptable and that the suggestions of violence are intended to underscore that fact.

The problem remains: how do you deal with it (or any other wholly unacceptable behavior)?

My suggestion?

When everyone is seated prior to the first hand, announce the following to everyone:

Slow-rolling, splashing the pot, hand mucking, signaling, soft-playing, whipsawing, marking cards (add your other hot buttons here) is not allowed. (You might consider handing out a printed list.)

If caught, the penalties are as follows:
1st offense = Verbal warning
2nd offense = Kicked out of tournament -- entry fee forfeited
3rd offense = Kicked out and permanently banned

The Tournament Director has absolute authority to interpret and enforce the rules. Staying seated indicates your acceptance of these rules. Anyone who wants to get up and leave right now will have their entry fee refunded.

Done.

Edit: I know this is similar to your earlier list, but I don't think the "sit out" stuff is beneficial. The verbal warning is there to show you mean business. After that, you need to get any violators out of your game. In fact, you might consider skipping the second offense penalty and going straight to the third.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
The consistent message I'm picking up is that everyone hates cheaters, slow-rollers, and many other types of angle-shooters (understandably, I might add). However, unless one of you has actually followed through on your "beat the sh*t out of him" comments and found it to be an effective way of dealing with it (and I hope that's not the case), these comments aren't particuarly helpful.

I imagine the truth is that everyone considers this to be totally unacceptable and that the suggestions of violence are intended to underscore that fact.

The problem remains: how do you deal with it (or any other wholly unacceptable behavior)?

My suggestion?

When everyone is seated prior to the first hand, announce the following to everyone:

Slow-rolling, splashing the pot, hand mucking, signaling, soft-playing, whipsawing, marking cards (add your other hot buttons here) is not allowed. (You might consider handing out a printed list.)

If caught, the penalties are as follows:
1st offense = Verbal warning
2nd offense = Kicked out of tournament -- entry fee forfeited
3rd offense = Kicked out and permanently banned

The Tournament Director has absolute authority to interpret and enforce the rules. Staying seated indicates your acceptance of these rules. Anyone who wants to get up and leave right now will have their entry fee refunded.

Done.

Edit: I know this is similar to your earlier list, but I don't think the "sit out" stuff is beneficial. The verbal warning is there to show you mean business. After that, you need to get any violators out of your game. In fact, you might consider skipping the second offense penalty and going straight to the third.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent points and advice. The reason I want to implement a penalty system where you are forced to sit out, etc. is because I honestly don't believe that everytime something like this happens (splashing the pot, miscalling your hand, not posting your ante, etc.) that it is intentional.

Sometimes mistakes happen, and my new penalty system is designed so that if someone screws up they aren't penalized too harshly for it. Perhaps if they have to fold their hands for five minutes they'll remember not to splash the pot or whatever.

Back in high school we'd play baseball in gym. I'd hit the ball no problem, but I'd always chuck the bat backwards almost killing the catcher. My coach threatened that he was going to duct-tape my hands to the bat if I kept doing it. Sure enough, one day he had a roll of duct tape. I hit the ball and ran to the base with the bat taped to my hands!

After that I learned my lesson and made sure to put the bat down instead of just tossing it to run.

Anyway, I don't want players to feel like making an honest mistake will result in me coming down like the Ghestappo on them, you know? But I also reserve the right to alter the penalties based on the situation. With this particular player it was obvious that most of his "mistakes" were deliberate, so I would obviously apply the harsher penalties sooner in his case.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, I don't want players to feel like making an honest mistake will result in me coming down like the Ghestappo on them, you know? But I also reserve the right to alter the penalties based on the situation. With this particular player it was obvious that most of his "mistakes" were deliberate, so I would obviously apply the harsher penalties sooner in his case.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. That is the reason I put in the part that says: "The Tournament Director has absolute authority to interpret and enforce the rules."

While on this surface, this looks like "don't try to argue with me when you get caught," it can also be used to exercise discretion when you feel that it's warranted.

[ricochet420]

First you need a medium sized sewer rat, a couple feet of 3 inch pipe, a blow torch and a cap for the pipe. Use your imagination and you will figure out what we do to cheats and ratbastards.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
First you need a medium sized sewer rat, a couple feet of 3 inch pipe, a blow torch and a cap for the pipe. Use your imagination and you will figure out what we do to cheats and ratbastards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if you're McGyver or Inspector Gadget there with such a toy. *smirk*

[mrmookid]

Wow. It sounds like the original poster of this thread is speaking about the games I host. We're almost 30 years old and all know each other from 1st or 2nd grade. There are around 14-16 of us.

I am very annoyed by one of the regular players in my games. One of his tricks is to pass chips to his girlfriend when he is loosing. To combat this we started to draw for seats (why we didn't do this originally I don't know, like I said we were old friends). Other players HAVE SEEN him attempt to pass chips to her. She realized someone was watching and refused. This has happened several times.

One single game almost lead to a sit down. First one player swears he was up 300$ in chips only to come back from a cigarette chip and find them gone. God what a mess that was. Nobody confronted Mr. X because we can't prove anything but we all watch him like hawks now. The last few games we were successful in stopping this by allowing smoking in my basement. No more outside-cigarette breaks. (I don't know what we were thinking leaving this guy in the room alone - he's one of the few non-smokers and several of us know him as a cheat)

The other issue in that very same game seems *really* minor on the surface. We don't 'color-up' odd chips. For whatever reason it's been that way since we've started playing. If you have 15$ extra in chips you can't color this up for a 25$ chip. We all play like this and know about it. So in this game I was changing people up and when I got to this guy's girlfriend I noticed she had nothing to color up at all. I thought it was weird and asked her 'You don't have *any* chips to color up?'. She said no, that Mr. X took them. I turned to Mr. X and said 'You have to give that odd chip back, you can't use someone else's chip to round up your odd chips. He protested and then admitted he took 10 from her. I demanded he return the 100$ chip. Gave 90 to him and 10 to his Girlfriend. He FREAKED OUT. Wouldn't speak for the rest of the tournament, literally threw his chips into the pot whenever he could and tossed his cards across the table to muck. The biggest freaking baby. He pulls crap like this every game. God, I remember in one game he started screaming, stood up and flung his cards across the room. I said 'Mr. X. CALM DOWN'. He replied ' I JUST LOST 5 DOLLARS!! DON'T TELL ME TO BE CALM!!!'

Ummmmmm ok. I felt like throwing a 5$ bill at him and asking him to leave.

The move that gets me instantly annoyed is his splashing. He does it constantly. He'd splash the pot so fast you can barely see how much he REALLY put in there. I've called him on it several times, luckily each time I was right and he claims 'oh it was a mistake'. I've asked the whole table politely not to splash the pot (so he doesn't feel like I'm attacking him). About 4 people listen, the rest don't seem to care. I gave up on this.

The sad part is this: I don't want to say anything to him. And neither does anybody else. We're all long time friends and if any of us call him on this stuff we're in his crosshairs for the night. A sit-down or discussion with him about his attitudes or temper will no doubt lead to a big deal - since we're all friends it could cause a mess. Anyone have problems like this? Maybe I'm being a wimp and should just sit him down and speak to him.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
(I don't know what we were thinking leaving this guy in the room alone - he's one of the few non-smokers and several of us know him as a cheat)

[/ QUOTE ]

This floored me. You're playing for money with someone you know is a cheat? And he's your friend as well? Maybe I'm a prude, but I don't see how someone can be friends with someone who cheats. It reminds me of people that have affairs with married people and then are surprised when they start cheating on them. It's a slippery slope...

[ QUOTE ]
The sad part is this: I don't want to say anything to him. And neither does anybody else. We're all long time friends and if any of us call him on this stuff we're in his crosshairs for the night. A sit-down or discussion with him about his attitudes or temper will no doubt lead to a big deal - since we're all friends it could cause a mess. Anyone have problems like this? Maybe I'm being a wimp and should just sit him down and speak to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should he shape up? He has all of you whipped, you tolerate his behavior and if he ever gets called on it, he just throws a temper-tantrum until he gets his way.

I predict that this has gone on so long that there's no fixing it. You have two options:

a) put up with it (it looks like this is the option you've chosen) or

b) to tell him that he's not welcome (which it appears that none of you are prepared to do).

[mrmookid]

[ QUOTE ]
This floored me. You're playing for money with someone you know is a cheat? And he's your friend as well? Maybe I'm a prude, but I don't see how someone can be friends with someone who cheats. It reminds me of people that have affairs with married people and then are surprised when they start cheating on them. It's a slippery slope...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea. I know. It's stupid. Sadly we can't prove anything. When I say that several of us know he's a cheat I mean from other games. High-school. Monopoly a year ago. God you should watch him play golf. I don't think he's EVER played it right. We almost had one person willing to confront him on the 300$ chip situation. Apparently Mr. X spoke to Mr. Y about the whole thing. Mr Y admitted to me that Mr. X kinda admitted something but Mr. Y didn't want to elaborate. Since we had no proof and Mr. Y wouldn't speak up, I couldn't do anything.

[ QUOTE ]
Why should he shape up? He has all of you whipped, you tolerate his behavior and if he ever gets called on it, he just throws a temper-tantrum until he gets his way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've pinned him (and us).

[ QUOTE ]
a) put up with it (it looks like this is the option you've chosen) or

b) to tell him that he's not welcome (which it appears that none of you are prepared to do).

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust me, if I ever catch him pulling chips from another stack, dealing from the bottom, or any other kind of obvious cheat, I will stand up right then and there and ask him to leave.

We also have C going for us:

C: Now that we all smoke in the basement he might not come back. He doesn't like cigarette smoke.

[grandgnu]

Sounds like you're having a harder time than I am. Some people just don't realize that the rules are there to keep things fair for everyone.

Or they think their minor little things are "no big deal". And if all you do is constantly remind them of their infractions throughout the course of an event and don't actually DO anything about it, they aren't going to stop.

It's kinda like a creditor sending you a letter letting you know that if you don't pay up, they're going to "continue our collection attempts". OH NO, PLEASE MISTER BIG BAD CREDITOR, DON'T SEND ME ANOTHER LETTER THAT I'LL JUST IGNORE!

But then when they take your butt to court you realize it's serious. Anyway, I'm going to do a presentation at the start of my events, explaining some "common mistakes" and that will essentially serve as a "first offense" verbal warning for everyone. The 5 and 10 minute penalties after that SHOULD be sufficient to make them remember their mistakes and correct them. And if not, well, then they lose all rights to prize money and are booted from that event.

[tommy2]

I had a "friend" like this from 3rd grade until after college. Guys like this are always on the edge of something shady. I eventually just cut this type of guy out of my life and it was one of the best things I ever did. I wouldn't even go to events other people were having with this idiot in attendance. Eventually, everybody else realized they couldn't stand him either and he found a new group of people to annoy.

[phixxx]

If the people at the game aren't pussies, they will tell this guy exactly how they feel. He'll either realize he's an [censored] and won't come back, or be faced with ridicule every time he pulls some stupid prank.

Or you could just kick the [censored] out of him.

[Expunge]

I didn't get to read all the replies but i agree with Ten. The prick things he does are just annoying. If you lose 1 other player because of it, tell him he's out. But in reality those actions don't matter. If he is cheating he's out. Anyone asks, just tell them you caught him cheating. They should be happy you are taking actions against cheats.

[ericslagle]

My roommate and I have been doing a monthly $25 buy-in NL HE tournament where everyone gets 10,000 in chips. The crowd ranges from 20 - 40 people and so we try to be as organized as possible.
Here's what I do:
It's in the rules that you can't spash the pot.
If they do it we warn them first.
Then if they splash they must either fold their cards and leave the money in the pot, or replace money in pot to we can count it. This is costly and proves a quick learning lesson.

[Your Mom]

I actually had a problem with the host of one of my home games in college. He was violating his own rules - buying in for more than the allowed buy in, leaving wads of cash in front of him and putting it in play only when he wanted, and refusing to show his cards during an allin unless he won. I told him I was done with his game until he decided to play right. I usually brought a fish or two to the game plus I make the game lively with straddles and trash talk. He promised to follow the rules the next week, which he did. Problem solved. Don't be a pussy. This host could have kicked the [censored] out of me, but you'll only get respect if you say what you really feel.