Flopped a set against a TAG (count the mistakes)

[bunky9590]

Full Tilt 2/4 limit (long @$$ session)

Hero has 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in EP.
2 folds, Hero limps, MP1 folds, TAG Raises, all fold to BB who calls, hero calls.

Flop: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
BB checks, hero checks, TAG bets (auto bet since he raised PF) BB folds, hero calls.

Turn Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero checks, TAG checks behind.

River A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero bets, TAG raises, Hero calls.

Discuss.

[bisonbison]

preflop: sure.
flop: c/r now. There are too many scare cards
turn: see, then you get to bet this scary turn.
river: I don't know. I think bet-calling is alright.

[chesspain]

How could you not bet that turn?

[SCfuji]

who are you and what have you done with the real BUNKY (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1212525&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) ?

1)pf call/call fine
2)bet if you think hes going to take the lead on the flop, he will probably try and take it away from you giving you a chance to 3-bet...
3)bet the turn
4)i like the bet on the river, seems if he had a big diamond he would have bet the turn especially since you checked it to him. call is fine.

[Steeler]

I would bet the flop. Try to fold his high cards out before the redraw hits him. I doubt he would fold them but I would have to try to protect my hand. after the turn, as strong as your hand is, there are two strong draws to beat you. flush and straight. I'd check call from there. I don't want to be put in a position to call a raise getting 2 to 1 on the money against one player with that out there.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
who are you and what have you done with the real BUNKY ?


[/ QUOTE ]

I literally shot soda out of my nose when I read this. I like you already.

I assure you Bunky is alive and well in low limit land. This hand was really bad though.

Should have checkraised the flop and led the turn. Probably the better line.

[SCfuji]

[ QUOTE ]
I literally shot soda out of my nose when I read this.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a -EV bodily function. you'd better get it fixed.

fuji.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the flop. Try to fold his high cards out before the redraw hits him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't checkraising an auto bet from a TAG be a much wiser play?

[ QUOTE ]
after the turn, as strong as your hand is, there are two strong draws to beat you. flush and straight. I'd check call from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak play. This was the main place this hand was screwed up. Probably a bigger mistake than not checkraising the flop was checking this turn. Free cards blow.

[Steeler]

In my experience with the Party Poker types. I don't think there is a way to improve your chance of winning here. He would surely call the Re-raise. When the turn card came, if he didn't hit his draw already, he would not fold to a bet with the draw that was up there, plus he would not put you on a set and think his high cards were good outs too. but, I do sometimes go on the defence to much and miss bets. I could be way off

[BeerMoney]

I think this is a classic example of the importance of position. You hit a monster, but we're still left guessing what to do since we have no position. I assume you were going for a check-raise on the turn, right?

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a classic example of the importance of position. You hit a monster, but we're still left guessing what to do since we have no position. I assume you were going for a check-raise on the turn, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the plan yes. Whiffed that one good though.

[blackaces13]

Does anyone fold this pre-flop? I think the open-limp from UTG+2 with 22 in a typical 2/4 game is -EV, especially with a TAG behind you.

[MisterKing]

I fold this PF, but once I hit the flop, I'm C/R 100% of the time. If I get the chance, I'll cap. The two suited cards and the straight draws scare me s**tless. If someone is still with me on the turn, Its bet/call for me. Afterall, the board could pair and save your ass on 5th street.

But back to the bigger point... the "Bunky" that played this hand is NOT the Bunky that I read about here on 2+2 blowing a kiss to some WPT-wannabe in AC. Low down dirty shame, that is.

[Shillx]

My standard line here is c/r the flop, lead the turn and river. Calling the flop and going for a c/r on the turn is too sketchy. By check/raising the flop the TAG might think you have a jack, and if overcards fall on later streets you might be able to win lots of big bets off of him if he has AK/AQ.

The Shill

[bunky9590]

Well. The TAG flips A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the rivered nuts. Should mention that the TAG was no dummy, for the TAG was the one and only "Bunky".

[ QUOTE ]
But back to the bigger point... the "Bunky" that played this hand is NOT the Bunky that I read about here on 2+2 blowing a kiss to some WPT-wannabe in AC. Low down dirty shame, that is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Feel better now? I posted this hand mostly for the newer players that decide to slowplay sets against aggressive player, but aggressive players that are thinking and understand how things work and have position on you can comeback and stomp your nuts. Never slowplay a set like that on a board like that. EVER.


Oh yeah, I got berated for this one too. Aren't free cards a BEE-OTCH?

[nothumb]

Ni han. Ni thread too.

I have one almost exactly like this, except the loser flopped two pair, that I've been meaning to post, but from my own perspective, gloating about my free card play.

This just made me happy. Happy happy happy. That limp with 22 is bad bad bad.
NT

[Steeler]

[ QUOTE ]
Well. The TAG flips A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the rivered nuts. Should mention that the TAG was no dummy, for the TAG was the one and only "Bunky".



I see my plan to bet the flop and then check call if the TAG called the flop bet may not have been the best play. But I'm still learning this game. But one question. If the Set would have played tougher with the check raising and all, would you have folded out? Educate me...thanks

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I see my plan to bet the flop and then check call if the TAG called the flop bet may not have been the best play. But I'm still learning this game

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for coming aboard. We all started that way.

I may well have folded to the checkraise, but maybe not.
If he bet out, I certainly would not have folded. With my overcards/backdoor outs, but my backdoor outs really cam in handy here. The free card play on the turn was a bad move by the set, his best chance to have me fold was the check raise the flop. Once the turn hits, if he check raises or bets out, there would have been barely enough odds for me to call to spike the flush card. But betting the river was a very thin value bet, It's asking to get raised when I hit.
If you can't bet/fold to the raise here, you really need to check /call the river. Value betting into me there with a set on a 4 flush board is definitely -EV.

But, his only chance with the BB folding was to checkraise the flop.

[SCfuji]

lol. i knew something was wrong with this post.

[spamuell]

I'm pretty focused on discussing pre-flop tonight because I'm too tired to discuss post-flop. I actually wrote a reply to this with numbers of combinations of hands and ranges and EV and all that fancy stuff but then I realised that I wasn't taking into account the EV of outs and I couldn't just count the bets because it was the turn not the river and that all seemed to hard so I stopped.

So, wtf is everyone talking about when they say you can't limp with 22 here? Of course you can, ok this hand it didn't work out well (except it did because hero was not Bunky /images/graemlins/grin.gif) but you're 7.5:1 to flop a set. Of course, you don't win the whole time you flop a set, but when you do, the pots you win are MUCH MUCH larger than 3.75BBs, you usually win monstrously bloated pots from all sorts of crappy top pair no kicker hands that went silly numbers of bets on silly numbers of streets. Folding pre-flop is insane here and at times like this (and pretty much always when I think about it), I wish Dynasty still posted in SS.

[bunky9590]

Hey bud. Thanks for the time. I didn't feel his PF limp with 22 was out of line. If I wasn't raising the pots (My VP$IP was like 23% this session), it rarely got raised. When I say rarely, I mean 1 out of 4 would get raised. average of 3-5 players in an unraised pot.

However as soon as I started entering hands for a raise (which wass darn near every time) it was usually HU or at most 3 handed. With it rarely getting past the flop let alone the turn. in the unraised pots, the pots were decent, So, his limp was fine. His Post Flop play was awful though. Let me get there basically free and then paid off.

[spamuell]

Hey Bunky,

[ QUOTE ]
His Post Flop play was awful though. Let me get there basically free and then paid off.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was bad but I don't think going for the turn check-raise was awful, although of course from this end it seems so.

This is something I wrote earlier about this hand when I thought that you were the Hero:

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: It's a shame your check-raised whiffed but I think he will usually bet here. I think you should consider betting though because with many of the hands that he would bet, he will raise and you can 3-bet. Most TAGs finds it much easier to fold to a turn check-raise than they do a a turn bet-3bet because the former is almost always a strong hand while the reason they raise the latter is because when they bet into you on a scary turn, they just picked up a draw and are semi-bluffing, which is why you raise, so they must still be semi-bluffing when you 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, yeah, there are definitely more profitable ways to play this hand but I think a TAG will be this turn with most of the hands that he raises pre-flop with (almost every hand which is not AK).

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I literally shot soda out of my nose when I read this.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a -EV bodily function. you'd better get it fixed.

fuji.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just realized as I read this that I'm really tired of all the damn non poker EV metaphors.

Nothing against you, this was probably mildly humorous, but I think a threshold just got tripped for me.

--Zetack

[SCfuji]

uh ... ok. ive never done one before and thought id throw it in there for bunky. i havent been on this forum(see my post #s) as long as you have so i guess i havent had my fair share. please vent your anger elsewhere... may i suggest at a $2/$4 table of unsuspecting fish?

thanks /images/graemlins/smile.gif
fuji

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing against you

[/ QUOTE ]
offense not taken.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
please vent your anger elsewhere... may i suggest at a $2/$4 table of unsuspecting fish?

[/ QUOTE ]


ooooh, what a bad idea. Never tap on the glass. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

--Zetack