A10o

[Gomez22]

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Gomez22 is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">Gomez22 raises</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Gomez22 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, Gomez22 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Gomez22 checks, Button checks.

River: (4.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Gomez22 checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Gomez22 calls.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 6.75 BB, between Gomez22 and Button.</font>

[Piiop]

I like the way you played this hand.

[MarkL444]

Yeah this looks fine to me too.

[Jaran]

Well played.

-Jarn

[toss]

Button had a busted flush draw?

[srt19170]

Okay, I'll be the lightning rod.

If Button is any good, he's calling your pf raise with high pockets or something like AK. With this flop, you're behind to most hands he's playing.

I like your bet on the flop to test his hand. I don't believe he's playing 8x or 4x (except maybe pockets), and he has to think you might be playing high pockets, so I take his raise to mean he has top two pair or possibly two very strong overcards (AK). I generally don't believe that people will raise with a flush draw heads-up, but he might be holding something like KTs with some high card value and the flush draw.

My conclusions is that I'm behind 60+% of the time here. Since I'm heads-up, the pot is small, and I've only got 3 solid outs, I'm folding to the raise.

Now we get the responses that say (1) this is party, he could be playing 65o, (2) weak play like this will cost you THOUSANDS of dollars, you should call and c/f the turn, (3) etc., etc., etc. :-)

-- Scott

[hagelito]

I'm with you srt19170, but I think it's a possibility he has a flushdraw and raised for the free card on turn.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
If Button is any good, he's calling your pf raise with high pockets or something like AK. With this flop, you're behind to most hands he's playing

[/ QUOTE ]

You seriously need to reconsider the range of hands the button could have here. He's probably not good and he's calling with WAY more hands than that.

[ QUOTE ]
I like your bet on the flop to test his hand

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop bet is good, but it's not testing anything. The hero will often have the best hand here.

[ QUOTE ]
so I take his raise to mean he has top two pair or possibly two very strong overcards (AK). I generally don't believe that people will raise with a flush draw heads-up, but he might be holding something like KTs with some high card value and the flush draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is more player dependant, but he could still have a wide range of hands here. Many players will raise flush draws headsup.

[ QUOTE ]
My conclusions is that I'm behind 60+% of the time here. Since I'm heads-up, the pot is small, and I've only got 3 solid outs, I'm folding to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just really, really weak. You can't put your one opponent on every hand that beats you, and you shouldn't discount your outs that much, especially headsup.

[banditdad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Button is any good, he's calling your pf raise with high pockets or something like AK. With this flop, you're behind to most hands he's playing

[/ QUOTE ]

You seriously need to reconsider the range of hands the button could have here. He's probably not good and he's calling with WAY more hands than that.

[ QUOTE ]
I like your bet on the flop to test his hand

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop bet is good, but it's not testing anything. The hero will often have the best hand here.

[ QUOTE ]
so I take his raise to mean he has top two pair or possibly two very strong overcards (AK). I generally don't believe that people will raise with a flush draw heads-up, but he might be holding something like KTs with some high card value and the flush draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is more player dependant, but he could still have a wide range of hands here. Many players will raise flush draws headsup.

[ QUOTE ]
My conclusions is that I'm behind 60+% of the time here. Since I'm heads-up, the pot is small, and I've only got 3 solid outs, I'm folding to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just really, really weak. You can't put your one opponent on every hand that beats you, and you shouldn't discount your outs that much, especially headsup.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not bet out on the river? Do you assume you are ahead and want him to bet to get the extra bet in?

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not bet out on the river? Do you assume you are ahead and want him to bet to get the extra bet in?

[/ QUOTE ]

After the turn check, I would put the button on a flush draw, or possibly a small PP and he's weak. If we check-call, then we give the button a chance to bet his busted draw or worse hand. If we bet, he won't call with anything we beat (he may call with an A for a split, but we won't be winning if we bet and he calls.) If we check and he checks behind we lose nothing. If we check-call, we will gain from all the times he bluff bets.

[banditdad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not bet out on the river? Do you assume you are ahead and want him to bet to get the extra bet in?

[/ QUOTE ]

After the turn check, I would put the button on a flush draw, or possibly a small PP and he's weak. If we check-call, then we give the button a chance to bet his busted draw or worse hand. If we bet, he won't call with anything we beat (he may call with an A for a split, but we won't be winning if we bet and he calls.) If we check and he checks behind we lose nothing. If we check-call, we will gain from all the times he bluff bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. That was my thinking also, but I wasn't sure it was correct.

[srt19170]

[ QUOTE ]

This is just really, really weak.


[/ QUOTE ]

I said I was going to be the lightning rod.

Your advice basically comes down to "he's probably a bad player, so keep going." Now I know this is often true, but presumably at some point you want to show some respect. Even fish get good cards some of the time.

In this case, you've got a weak hand (1.5 overcards), a small pot (5.5 SB), and a player who called a pf raise and raised a flop bet. If he's at all a decent player, you're behind -- maybe way behind. It seems to me like this is a good situation to fold: little upside compared to the downside.

If this is a weak, weak fold, then is there any way he might have played this hand that would be a good fold? Or are you just committed in this case through the turn? river?

I just looked through PT and I've played about 10 hands of AT high card hands to the river and as it happens I lost all of them at showdown. I have won with AT high card, but only to earlier folds. Obviously that's a small sample size but I'm curious what your stats with the hand are.

-- Scott

PS. One thing that bothers me about some of this advice is that my experience at PP is of far more passive players than maniacs. I'm much more likely to run into someone who limps with AA than someone who 3-bets with J7o. Maybe just randomness?