AQs in the SB v. MP open-raise. Turn bet.

[bisonbison]

MP2 is slightly loose and medium aggressive. Postflop, he rarely folds and is reasonably aggro.
BB is loose-passive.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

Is this bet reasonable against two opponents?

[EvanJC]

would a check/call be too weak?

[bisonbison]

Thank you for restating the question.

[EvanJC]

okay, i'd check/call. but it might be too weak ^_-

[Fat Nicky]

I like betting out here, especially because if I get raised, I have no problem calling.

[Piiop]

Is this a normal preflop 3-bet against this type of player? I think I'd fold more often than not.

On the turn, I would just check-call. The flop hit 1 or both of them and neither is folding. I think you might get a free card and possibly a river check-raise if you check.

[Gatts]

That's a good reason not to bet.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 is slightly loose and medium aggressive. Postflop, he rarely folds and is reasonably aggro.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see much reason to bet the turn if there is little chance both will fold. If you make the flush on the river, you will probably get at least 2 bets from MP2.

The Shill

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
I like betting out here, especially because if I get raised, I have no problem calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look. Just because when you get raised you have a clear call, doesn't mean you have no problem being raised. If you are always going to be raised here then you shouldn't bet.

[Tosh]

I think its ok. I have often seen this situation, and had both players go away after I bet the turn, so I bet too.

[Rubeskies]

I'd say you have up to 15 possible (9 flush, 3 Ace, 3 tens) outs here. Even if 3 of your outs are tainted, your draw will come in so often that if they both call then the bet is for value.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are always going to be raised here then you shouldn't bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're not going to get raised here all the time, you're also not going to get called all the time when you bet. I guess I should have added that I wouldn't want this checked through as I want more bets in the pot going to the river for my strong draw.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
You're not going to get raised here all the time, you're also not going to get called all the time when you bet. I guess I should have added that I wouldn't want this checked through as I want more bets in the pot going to the river for my strong draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your reasoning is what is wrong. I am not claiming you will always be raised, merely saying why your reasoning was in error. Its often more important how you get to your chosen play than what your play actually is.

[alekhine8]

I'd bet out again. They both might fold (unlikely), one or two will call (likely) or you'll get raised (somewhat likely). Given your reads, MP2 is unlikely to fold a worse hand so a checkraise is a bad idea.

The only real bad thing that can happen here is its three bets back to you. Even if its capped and all three of you go to the river, you would have put in 4 bets in an 18 bet pot [22.2%] with 12 clean outs [26.1%], and you'd definitely pick up a few more on the river.

[Danenania]

I think it's close in EV between betting or checking. My default is to bet but if I get the feeling that a raise is waiting for me then I might check.

[Danenania]

With 15 outs you're a 2.07 to 1 dog to come in by the river so your bet wouldn't quite be for value. Also if you get raised by MP, I think AK or KJ or JJ become his most likely hands, meaning your A outs aren't worth squat.

[nothumb]

Ok, my first thought was to say to you, "I used to make too many of these bets, and it cost me money, and you don't have to bet just because you pick up a few outs, ok??"

Then I thought, that open-raise gives MP2 a huge range of hands, and you are therefore more likely to be best or have a better chance of drawing out, and that 3-bet pre-flop probably put the fear of God in him, so there's a good chance he'll just call even if he has you beat right now.

I don't think we are hoping to fold both of these players too often. It happens, but I don't think we give ourselves much EV for a bluff here.

There are a lot of scenarios here that make it hard to predict. You want to get the most money in on the river if you win, but your position relative to the likely bettor takes away the power of a check-raise somewhat. If the bettor were on your immediate left, you could check-call the turn and check-raise the river with a decent chance of getting the loose-passive player to come along.

I think this basically comes down to meta-game considerations and reads. If you think a bet is likely to go in anyway if you check, but a raise is unlikely if you bet, you should bet. If you think he'll bet if you check and raise if you bet, you should check. Given that the 3-bet might have put him in more of a calling mood, I think you should bet unless the table texture really discourages you from doing so.

It's very close, as long as you recognize it's not standard, I think it's probably good.

NT

[Trix]

Dont think you will get raise that often on that card and you have to call anyways. As little as winning it 10% might be enough to bet here as you wont get raised that often and you have 10 outs usually when you do, plus decent implied odds.

when MP has TT-77 he probably fold, same with BB if he has a pair lower than Tens. This is probably often enough.

[ThePimpulator]

I think it is close. Given the read of MP2 I might be tempted to check. If you miss the river and just MP2 remains do you bluff at it? If you do then I think I would bet the turn also. If you would check the river unimproved I think I would check the turn too.

[bunky9590]

I don't know if its reasonable, but I make it all day long and twice on Sunday.

[Brunger]

I would bet here every time. Especially when I three-bet pre-flop. There is definitely a chance to fold a pair of tens or 9's and worst case senario I have 13 outs to the nuts and 16-19 outs if an A or Q is good.

[spamuell]

I think this bet partly depends on your own image. Usually, I'd just bet because I think with the J on the turn, there is some value to getting them to fold worse hands (like TT-77, as Trix said). If I've been somewhat LAGgro in the last few hands, I'd check. I don't think it's bad to do both here.

If the flop was 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif and then the turn was a K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, I'd always bet, because I think there are far more hands they'd be willing to fold here, but now I think about it that's really only like AT, A9 and perhaps another AQ against loose opponents, so perhaps it's not as different as I have been thinking.

[Steeler]

This is my first post so, hello everyone. I would check/call the turn. The others might put me on an unimproved pocket pair. This would put me in a position to check raise the river if it's a club, or check/fold if i miss.

[nothumb]

Keep in mind that you want to give yourself the best chance to win the pot, not just make more money if you win. See my post about a river check-raise - it is not going to be an opportune time for this in all likelihood and you discount the times you can get players to fold or (rarely) buy some outs, etc. Also, if this player is likely to bet if checked to (thus forcing you to put one bet in anyway) betting out yourself has far greater EV, especially if he will raise you very rarely.

NT