Did i do this right?

[Hybrid_11]

2/4 table online
i dont have the hand so i cant convert it but ill go off of memory

Im in small blind and get dealt 7 9 o
there are 6 limpers in to the pot with no raises i complete the dollar and the big blind checks

the flop came q 10 7
checked around to middle posititon who bets and cut off and button call i call and so does big blind

reason for calling was there was about 20 dollars into the pot and felt 10 to 1 odds were good enough to see the turn.

the turn brought another 7 also completing the rainbow for no flush draws

I come out betting and big blind raises the flop better calls and so does the button i reraise big blind calls middle position folds and button calls

river is a 4

I bet again and the big blind raises button folds and i call

Big Blind has A7
I have 79

so i get outkicked and Big Blidnd begins his onslaught of being cocky and telling me that was a horrible play on my part playing that crap and that he will be glad to continue to take my money.

I belive i played it right can any of u comment on any of my preflop and postflop/turn and river play?

thanks in advance.

[prayformojo]

Fold pre-flop. This is an offsuit garbage hand. It will not make money.

Fold the flop. Why exactly did you feel 10 to 1 was good enough to see the turn? I'm not being sarcastic; I want to know. Your post gives no indication of how you figured your outs or your odds.

[Piiop]

Why would you fold the flop? You're getting 11:1.

[Nutz&Boltz]

7-9o is junk,even with 6 limpers in sb,fold. Since you called now you have a tough decision on the flop, I fold this also.

[Hybrid_11]

i am a semi aggresive person i like to see the flops as i am very confident with my post flop play and i felt that 1 dollar with that much money in the pot preflop was worth it. After the flop i called the 2 dollars because the pot would have been around 25 dollars so to put in 2 im still getting around 11 to 1 and i gave myself 5 outs to hit something on the turn as in the remaining 2 7's and 3 9's so i felt a call was in order esoecially with the number of players still in the hand so the implied odds to hit the set or two pair would have been big enough if the odds were a little against me.

[prayformojo]

I'd like more info, especially suits, first off. But I don't like the flop call here because I don't see clean outs other than the three 7s (turns out not clean at all, but no realistic reason to discount them here). A 9 puts the board at QT97, possibly making a straight but certainly giving draws a-plenty. With a 7 already on the board, the backdoor straight draws are pretty thin, and even a winning straight may be a chop with anyone with a 9.

I don't know, I'm coming back from a long downturn, so maybe I'm giving too much credit to re-draws. Maybe I'm getting weak, and am too influenced by the bad pre-flop complete (and it's still bad, no matter how much you like your post-flop skills). 11 to 1 just isn't enough for me on this flop.

[Piiop]

I agree completely with your problem with unclean outs, but not so much that I would fold. 11:1 means you can have 2 outs and still call the flop, I'm sure that the Hero has at least that many, even discounted.

[prayformojo]

[ QUOTE ]
11:1 means you can have 2 outs and still call the flop, I'm sure that the Hero has at least that many, even discounted.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not arguing whether 11:1 was good enough on this flop generally, but why is 11:1 good enough to call with two outs on the flop? Isn't this just basic calling pot odds: 45:2= 22.5:1?

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not arguing whether 11:1 was good enough on this flop generally, but why is 11:1 good enough to call with two outs on the flop? Isn't this just basic calling pot odds: 45:2= 22.5:1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. 11:1 is the odds that your draw will come in by the river. Here we are advocating that the hero only take one card off to see if he improves thus needing 22-1 to call with two outs.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not arguing whether 11:1 was good enough on this flop generally, but why is 11:1 good enough to call with two outs on the flop? Isn't this just basic calling pot odds: 45:2= 22.5:1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, my bad, that's for seeing the turn and river.

Still though, I believe he has enough outs to see the turn. He only needs 4, and I would give him that many.

[Nutz&Boltz]

The problem with calculating all these miracle redraws is you may be drawing dead in the first place. I here players talking about chasing 2 pair or even trips because they are getting 11-1 on there 9-1 redraw. This doesn't discount your outs for the fact that you may be drawing dead to a set or a higher 2 pairs or blah, blah and blah. You could also hit your hand and loose to a GOOD draw on the river.

WHY NOT HAVE THE PATIENCE TO WAIT UNTIL YOU HAVE A GOOD HAND OR A GOOD DRAW. There are plenty of excellent +EV situations waiting for you if you stop hoping that your draw is good and save your chips. You also avoid the swings I here players whine about. Buck up and fold or give me your screen name so I can add you to my Buddy list. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sthief09]

fold the flop and just call the turn raise

[sthief09]

nah completing in a 1/2 blind strcuture is easy here.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
i am a semi aggresive person i like to see the flops as i am very confident with my post flop play and i felt that 1 dollar with that much money in the pot preflop was worth it. After the flop i called the 2 dollars because the pot would have been around 25 dollars so to put in 2 im still getting around 11 to 1 and i gave myself 5 outs to hit something on the turn as in the remaining 2 7's and 3 9's so i felt a call was in order esoecially with the number of players still in the hand so the implied odds to hit the set or two pair would have been big enough if the odds were a little against me.

[/ QUOTE ]


first of all, "semi-aggressive" doesn't make you good. second of all, you played the hand like crap, so you shouldn't justify making other loose calls because you "play well." don't call for the hell of calling. call because you have something. you have nothing.

then you somehow gave yourself 5 outs on the flop? please explain that to me. you have a one-card backdoor straight draw, where half the straights (K then J) give you the idiot end of a 4-card board straight. If you make 2 pair, you'll often lose to a straight or a better two pair. if you make trips, you're probably good, but the board is relatively coordinated, so you could lose to a redraw or a better 7. I'd give you no more than 3 outs here. But that's not all. you still have players to act behind you that could be raising, which further devalues your almost worthless draw.

[Yerma]

Hi Nutz & Boltz,

The line used by most strong players is that they need about 11:1 to draw to bottom pair on a rainbow flop in a multiway pot. Under certain circumstances, you don't need even 11:1. In this spot, I think hybrid needed at least 11:1 to make this call.

[sthief09]

I wouldn't call getting less than 15-1

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Josh,

I wouldn't call getting less than 15-1

I agree with you that folding the flop was the right play, but our reasoning might be slightly different. For the purposes of explaining where and how, let's change the situation.

Suppose the first limper bet out on the flop. If everybody calls, you'd be getting 14:1 before the rake, and almost closing the action with little fear of a raise from the BB. HOWEVER, you still shouldn't call. Now suppose the first limper bet out on the flop and only one player called. Now you should call, despite the significantly lower pot odds. The reasoning behind this perhaps seemingly counter-intuative decision has a lot to do with the board. In this instance, your two pair outs put a very coordinated board out there with redraws-a-plenty for your opponents when your 9's are clean in the first place. How clean they are and how significant that coordinated board is depends on the number of opponent you have. The more opponents, the less and less weight your 9's hold. Against two opponents they may be worth 2.6 outs; against five, maybe as little as .8 outs. More opponents also means more of a chance your 7 is dominated or that players will still be drawing relatively live should you turn 3 of a kind. This is far less of a consideration than your 2-pair outs, but it still is a consideration.

So if you mean that you would call gettign 15:1 is money got somehow dropped into the pot out of nowhere, I agree. But if you mean that if the BB bets out and everybody calls, you'd call getting 15:1, I disagree. I think it should be a fold. I'm not sure if this concept has been covered in the SS or not (I'm pretty sure it hasn't in any 2+2 literature), but it is something you should add to your arsenal of knowledge.

GoT

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
fold the flop and just call the turn raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Sthief, I'm scared.. your advice is precisely what I would've said, and I suck ;P I don't have any huge databases to back it up, but I can't imagine that 79o can be much worse than break even here, and might be profitable, though I guess that sorta depends on table conditions. I definitely lean toward folding that flop though. In my mind, if I'm almost certain I'm behind, and don't really like hitting any of the cards that would improve my hand, mucking is typically the best idea. I don't think the flop call is too horrible though.

My question for the original poster...

After your turn bet gets raised, and you get what, 2, 3 cold callers, how often do you feel your hand is going to hold up, especially given the fact that eight trillion people saw this flop, and it was unraised PF?

It's more of a curiousity question than anything, I'd like to hear some thoughts on it. I can't imagine there's a whole ton of value in 3betting that turn, though I may be sounding like a weak-tighty these days. Very player dependant, I guess.

It's hands like these that get me doing that sacreligious nonsense of listening to Lee Jones. Maybe completing with 97o can be profitable here. Maybe calling on the flop can be profitable too. That can easily be argued either way.

But making very tiny +EV plays like that is going to end up -EV, if you're going to fark up the next few streets.

I think that's one thing that Lee Jones really had right, though it was in reference to overcards. Something like "A good player can often play overcards when he missed the flop, and do so profitably. But you're not giving up a whole lot by folding them."

Since I'm going to be in a very uncomfortable situation even if I do hit one of my 'outs' here, if I'm not sure whether a call is justified or not, I fold. Plain and simple. Since you felt you're better than the entire table combined, go ahead and outplay them on the later streets.