Need help explaining something from Rounder please...

[Xelent]

Hello everyone, I am not very good at expressing myself or giving examples to someone and I was looking for a math savy poster to help me explain something. In the movie Rounds, Matt Damon "bluffs" Chan for a 4th bet preflop and Chan folds. How can I explain to sometone using numbers and logic with examples that it was incorrect to do so. I tried explaining, but it was like talking to a brick wall.

[jgorham]

Just explain that whenever you put a bet into the pot, it is no longer yours. So when someone 4bets preflop, it isn't a matter of the first player having to match 4 bets, its one more bet that can win 7 (and thus odds so good there is no way you can fold).

[Xelent]

They were trying to tell me that my money is already in the pot and dead money, which really is an argument for me and that it is even money to make this call. That there are no pot odds because it is heads up and pot heads are only with more people.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
They were trying to tell me that my money is already in the pot and dead money, which really is an argument for me and that it is even money to make this call. That there are no pot odds because it is heads up and pot heads are only with more people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very very funny.

--Zetack

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
They were trying to tell me that my money is already in the pot and dead money, which really is an argument for me and that it is even money to make this call. That there are no pot odds because it is heads up and pot heads are only with more people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you were arguing with friends of yours. Make sure you continue to play with them--you'll take their money if they think like this. (They'll take yours if you think there are no pot odds heads-up.)

Once you make a bet, you can't take it back. It goes into the pot. When you get four-bet (heads up preflop), you will have put in three bets that you can't pull back out. Your two choices are to put in one more bet, or fold. At this point, it's costing you just one more bet to have a shot at winning the seven bets currently in the pot.

Keep thinking about this until you believe it. No-one can do your thinking or understanding for you, but we can show you the correct answer.

[Xelent]

Well I knew this, and this was at a place where I am playing. It's in a person's basement with dealers and everything. The argument was with the dealer and everyone agreed with her, but me. It was just frustrating when I couldn't properly explain myself.

[felson]

All the raising took place on the flop. If Chan believed that Damon was way ahead, then folding is correct.

[bicyclekick]

Yeah, it wasn't pre-flop.

[Sponger15SB]

Mike McD played with the best and clearly outplayed him....

*cough* paging sample size man...

[Xelent]

I didn't know it was on the flop.

[Cosimo]

Walk your friends through the example slowly. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Teacher: You put three bets in. Your opponent caps it. Should you call or fold?
Student: Fold. He has me beat.
T: Let's say you do this eight times. How many of those eight times will you hit a set on the flop?
S: Duh... none.
T: The correct answer is "about one." If you don't get a set on the flop, how often will your hand win with the turn & river?
S: Duh... none.
T: The correct answer is "about never." If you do get a set on the flop, how often will your hand win at the showdown?
S: Duh... you'll often lose.
T: Can we up the stakes at this tournement? Because you people are really stupid. You have a set, he just has one pair (at best), and you think somehow that you are really far behind?
S: Well, sometimes a set gets drawn out on.
T: How often would you say that is? Half the time?
S: Probably more.
T: Gah, you're stupid. I give up. Can we up the stakes again?

Part of the problem might be the fish reinforcing themselves. One says something stupid, and the next one thinks the same way and says "yeah he's right," and suddenly none of them wants to back down.

You might also have the problem that these are people that refuse to admit when they are wrong. You have two choices with people like this: let them suffer in ignorance, or tell them the correct answer and hope they think about it when there aren't other people in the room with whom they feel the need to save face. Generally I don't stay friends with people that can't admit they are wrong. I choose to let them suffer in ignorance.

At some point, you have to ask yourself why you are trying to get them to understand the truth. Is it because you want them to become better poker players, or because you want them to hail you as a genius? If they're not real close friends, then you don't have a good reason to be a table coach. If a couple are really close friends, talk to them away from the table. I generally use a deck of cards as props, so have that handy.

[gamblore99]

i think you use violence to prove your point. Its like that saying goes, "the sword is mighter than the pen"