Omaha raising hands w/o AA

I know it's terribly difficult to narrow down a field of potential playable hands, let alone raising hands, in Omaha.

So here's the situation. What hands, in a mid level O8 game would you raise with that doesn't include AA?


For example, last night I received KKQJ double suited. I didn't raise with it, but in retrospect I think this is a very powerful hand and worthy of a raise, even in a half low game.


Any other examples?

A234, A2xx (raise usually in loose low limit games - suited to the ace even better), A23x, I would never raise with AA in omaha hi low unless offcourse i had a 2 or maybe a 3 with it....


I think you should read Ray's Book for further more precise advice..


I dont think the hand you mentioned deserves a raise...

Just my thoughts,

-MJ

What about hands without A2 or A3? Are there any raising hands that don't contain A2 or A3?


- Tony

Dan - One of us may have the wrong idea about Omaha-8 pre-flop raises. I see three distinct reasons to pre-flop raise in Omaha-8.


(1) You want to steal the blind(s) and think your raise has a good shot at accomplishing that purpose.


(2) You think you have a hand that plays well one-on-one and you think your raise will either get you heads up with one opponent (or win the pot right there).


(3) You have an excellent hand that has a high expectation of getting all or at least part of a multi-way-pot and you think that by raising pre-flop you will collect more from your opponents than by not pre-flop raising. I think this kind of raise is called a “value” raise, and may be what many players are thinking of when they raise before the flop in a game where their raise will not phase anyone at the table.


All of the above listed reasons for raising are very opponent dependent.


Raising because of reason #1 is almost unheard of in a typical low limit ($6-$12 or lower) ring game. (It simply doesn’t work). In my very limited experience with mid-level games, raising to steal the blinds doesn't seem very effective there either. However, at certain points in a tournament, depending on relative stack sizes, and depending on tendencies of the opponents who have posted the blinds, especially the big blind, stealing blinds becomes a viable strategy.


Raising to get one-on-one with an opponent (reason #2) works in certain situations in some low limit games and might be even more effective in mid-limit games. The game usually has to be relatively tight to be able to get one-on-one with someone, and it helps if you have established an image of rarely pre-flop raising. Especially after some opponents have already folded, certain other opponents will fold hands to a double bet - hands they might otherwise have played, had there been no raise, leaving you to face fewer opponents, perhaps only the blind(s). Raising to get one-on-one often works well in tournaments (but not before the re-buy period ends in multiple re-buy tournaments).


Raising because of reason #3 often works well in loose, low-limit games, and might work in a mid-limit game, especially if your opponents interpreted your raise as attempting to steal the blinds or limit the field. Other times your pre-flop raise might seem to work well, but then you might get less action later in the hand when the betting limits increase. Thus the seeming success of your pre-flop raise in this situation would be an illusion.


For example, if you usually raise before the flop with A-2-X-X, and especially if your opponents only remember you as pre-flop raising when you have A-2-X-X, then although your opponents may call your raise in order to “see the flop,” they may hold themselves to higher standards after the flop or later in the hand when you want action.


Some players only seem to pre-flop raise with A-A-X-X. They might as well turn over the pair of bullets, because the skillful players at the table know they have them. This is valuable information. The same is true of players who only pre-flop raise with A-2-X-X.


As for KKQJ double suited.... It’s a solid hand, but not a premium hand. With KKQJ double suited I prefer to see the flop as cheaply as possible, because I think the hand is very flop dependent. Although A-2-3-X (or any hand for that matter) is also flop dependent, there are many more flops that fit with A-2-3-X than with KKQJ double suited. Stretching the meaning of playable as much as seems reasonable to me, only about one flop out of four is playable when you hold KKQJ double suited in a full game. Without a king on the flop, and sometimes even with it, you’re very vulnerable to an ace. If the flop is J-T-9 or T-9-8, so that you have flopped the nut straight, you’re vulnerable to the board pairing. If you flop a flush, you’re vulnerable to an ace high flush.


Sure, you love it when you flop a flush with an ace on the board, or a pair of kings, or a king and a lower pair, but that doesn’t happen much. Most of the playable flops when you hold KKQJ double suited are high straight draws, 2nd-nut flush draws, or just flops with one king.


If your pre-flop raise drives every one out except someone who has a decent hand that includes an ace and a possible low, then you probably end up playing someone with a better one-on-one Omaha-8 hand than KKQJ double suited. Finally, since KKQJ double suited is probably going to be a drawing hand after the flop, I think you like as many opponents in the hand as possible, so that when you hit your draw you can collect.


All of the above considered, I would not value raise before the flop with KKQJ double suited.


Just my opinion. I’m always interested in feed-back that might help improve my game.


Buzz

Tony - "Are there any raising hands that don't contain A2 or A3?"


I think lots of them, depending on your reason for raising and your estimated chances of success in accomplishing your goal.


However, if your goal is simply to get more money in the pot in games where everybody is expected to see the flop regardless of whether you have raised, and where your raise will not give anyone pause - probably not many.


I don't have much success raising pre-flop unless my raise is likely to intimidate an opponent, or cause an opponent(s) to make a mistake by folding a hand superior to mine, and usually in that case the raise is not made with A-2-X-X or A-A-X-X. In these situations I only raise before the flop with A-2-X-X or A-A-X-X often enough to make my raises with other hands threatening.


Pre-flop raising in that fashion seems to work better for me than raising because I have A-2-X-X, A-3-X-X or A-A-X-X. (I've tried it the other way).


However, if you raise before the flop with 2-5-J-J and accomplish the goal of knocking out a particular opponent or opponents, and then (in order to take a contested pot) you have to show down the trash with which you have raised, it's probably a good idea to not raise with trash for a very long time against an opponent who realizes he was buffaloed.


Just my opinion.


Buzz

Buzz,

you've made some good points to consider. The tables I play at you can't steal the blinds because it will NEVER be folded to the button. I've seen people come in with absolute crap, stick around for two bets on the flop with no draws, grab a gutshot on the turn and hit it on the river to scoop half the pot.

The best hand is going to have to show down in these games.

I understand all your reasons for not raising KKQJ(ds). The reason I suggested it is because so many people are playing so many worse hands that there's a good chance that hitting a hand (even second nut flush) will pull down the pot for me. With these high low games, everyone tries for low and, if they happen to hit a high, well, bonus for them.

Dan - In the game you have described, raising before the flop with KKQJ(ds) is probably generally more profitable than not raising.


IMHO you have chosen one of the two best ace-less Omaha-8 hands. (The other would be KKQQ, double suited). I think KKQT(ds), KKJT(ds), KKQJ(ss to the king), and KKQQ(ss) are not far behind, followed closely by KKQT(ss to the king), KKJT(ss to the king), KQQJ(ds or ss to the king), and KQQT(ds or ss to the king). You can probably show more of a profit by raising before the flop with all of these hands in the game you have described, assuming you play good poker after the flop.


If you find a good fit with the flop with any of the above listed hands, you probably don’t have to worry much about splitting with low. The same would be true of KQJT, suited or not. However, although I play KQJT, I seem to do much better with hands having a pair of kings, or even a pair of queens. There are some possibly playable high only hands which include a nine, such as KKQ9(ds), but the nine seems to make these hands second rate, IMHO.


At the other end of the spectrum, 2345 would seem to be the best ace-less hand. And 2345, suited or not, does not seem nearly as good as KKQJ(ds). You almost need to catch an ace on the flop to continue with the hand, and even then there is no guarantee low will be possible. When low is possible and there is also an ace on the board, you have the nut low and some chance of scooping, but are usually playing for half the pot. Thus 2345, while generally playable to a single bet before the flop, seems mediocre as a starting hand, especially in comparison to a fine hand like KKQJ(ds).


2nd nut flush draws after a flop with two cards to your flush are dangerous, because people in games such as the one you have described tend to see the flop with suited aces. Even so, starting against eight opponents, if you make the 2nd nut flush in such a game as you have described, roughly seventy per cent of the time none of your opponents has an ace high flush. If you play good poker, you may be able to determine when someone does have the nut flush against you. But it’s still dangerous playing the 2nd nut flush.


It’s even more dangerous playing the 2nd nut flush *draw* after the flop or the turn, because an opponent with the ace would also be on a draw. Accordingly, an opponent with the nut flush draw *may* not be betting or raising. The situation is obviously even more complicated when there is also a low or a low draw.


if 2nd nut flush draws after a flop with two cards to your flush are dangerous, obviously 3rd nut flush draws (as with the queen) are even more difficult to play correctly. In a nine handed game when you are dealt a suited queen, roughly half the time an opponent has been dealt either a suited ace or a suited king. Whether or not someone will play a suited king adds complexity. Whether or not someone will bet or raise with a suited king adds complexity. Whether or not someone will bet or raise with a nut flush draw adds complexity. Possible lows add complexity. The resultant complexity is totally baffling to me. Consequently I don’t hold a suited queen in high esteem before the flop. You didn’t ask about a suited queen, but the explanation given in this paragraph may add clarity to my choices as listed above.


Just my opinion. I’m just a student of the game and, as such, interested in learning from the opinions of others who play Omaha-8 or are knowledgeable about the game.


Buzz

There's a few good articles at Ultimatebet on O8, written by Annie Duke. One of them is called something like 'Underestimating high sequenced cards', the main thrust being that such hands are good because it is usually clear quickly on the flop whether your hand is/ will be any good and when it is you will very often scoop.


Also, re 2nd best flushes, particularly if u play PL u want to keep well away from King flushes, never mind Queen-hi ones... big trouble, IMHO.


Daisy

Daisy - The articles on O-8 sound interesting. How does one get to ultimate bet? (I'll try on my own, but suspect I won't get there without an address).


I played some pot limit Texas hold 'em once. Got a few hundred ahead after an hour or so and thought I was doing all right. Then, whop! One hand and it was all gone, my winnings plus my original stake. Surprising how fast it can get very expensive.


Think I'll stick to low limit Omaha-8 for a while. There's something nice about feeling safe. /images/glasses.gif


Buzz

Daisy, I went to the ultimatebet site and looked for the articles in question but could not find them. Found some poker terms glossarys, quizzes, etc. but no O8 articles. Can you be more specific about where you found them on the site? Thanks.

When you load the UltimateBet.com poker client on your machine, it gives you a start page that has a bunch of articles and stuff on it that you can access on the web. That is probably where (s)he saw the articles.


That start page is different from their web page. I don't know if you can access it directly from the web.

RD, I have the UB client. When I open it to the main screen I see down the right column choices for:


play poker

new users

account services

tournament registration

poker community

help

main screen


I have looked though all of the above options and especially in poker community because that seemed the most likely place to find articles and I've had no luck. Can someone who knows be a little more specific about where these articles are? THanks.

sorry, havent checked in for a while. i agree the articles arent very easy to find - you'd think they'd want to publicise that they've got them!


anyway, this is how you get there: go to the website as mentioned above (NOT the software start page) and click on Team Ultimatebet; then click on the name Annie Duke on the right column; then click on 'Learn Omaha from a Pro' in the right hand column which will take you to the first article and at the bottom of that page are links to further articles.


This is the link to Annie's page, not sure if it'll work: http://ultimatebet.com/team_ub/duke/a_duke.html


good luck!


Daisy

Daisy - Thanks.