What should I be oberving

[wyattjames4]

I am new to live games and play 2-4 or 3-6 limit at Hawaiian Gardens Casino. I try to observe my opponents and focus on them at all times, but I find that there is just way to much information to process, even in the hands Im not in, which is most as I try to play very tight. So my question is, what should you observe, what information is more important than others, what is the thought process that I should be going through when Im collecting my information. How long do you need to observe a player before you can say hes a this or a that, or he does this or that. Also it seems like 8 players are just way too much to focus on. Is there any rule of thumb on who to focus on, or who to ignore? Thanks for any information you can give me.

[namknils]

Well you can start lumping the players into groups right away. You want to notice who limps in UTG and UTG+1 they probably play a lot of hands and clearly don't worry about position. You want to notice if someone hasn't played a hand for a while and raises a lot preflop, they are probably better than the others at the table and you can put them on a smaller range of hands.

Oh, one easy thing that I first noticed is that people let you know exactly what they are going to do before it's their turn to act. I was shocked at how many people would pick up three chips or hold their hands up ready to toss them when there were still 4-5 people ahead of them yet to act.

I hope this helps a little, it's just off the top of my head.

[bisonbison]

Paying attention to opponents is a learned skill, and not easy.

Next time you play, pick one opponent at your table and make it your mission to label him as a player using two simple criteria: tightness and aggression.

You just want a vague label, like "he is really loose and doesn't bet/raise without a really strong hand" or "he is fairly tight and will bet a wide variety of hands". Spend your entire session focusing on that guy and see how your impression changes as you see him play more hands.

Eventually, over the course of a few sessions, you'll feel comfortable enough to expand either A) the number of people you're paying attention to or B) the types of questions you're asking.

At first, knowing "Does he play a lot of hands?" and "Does he bet and raise a lot?" will more than keep you occupied (especially since you're also playing), but later you can start wondering:

Does he show down strong hands/weak hands/whatever he saw the flop with?
Does he fold much if the action gets heavy?
Does he ever fold on a round in which he has already committed money?
Does he ever fold in the blinds to a raise?
Does he bet draws?
Does he like offsuited broadways?
Will he play any ace?
Any two suited?
How about any suited face?


Just remember that it takes a lot of experience to know how that read may make a difference in your own decisions. So start simple: is one guy tight/loose passive/aggressive?

[wyattjames4]

thanks bison thats great information. probably the best ive seen.

[wyattjames4]

Another thing I was wondering about is raises? Ive figured out that raises are important to pay attention to, but Im not sure exactly what it is that Im looking for, like what should set of bells in my head and what is unimportant. And maybe Im thinking reraises are more important to watch for? I dont know. Anyone have thoughts on this?

[bisonbison]

Wyatt, it really depends. Also, understand that live 2/4 and 3/6 plays like online microlimits, and you'll get better responses in either the Beginner's or Micro forums. Particularly if you provide actual hands to analyze.

[Octopus]

bisonbison: You should consider making this the topic for your next essay length post.

I would add: What does he cold call raises with? In fact, any time anyone cold calls a raise, I pray I get to see what he is holding.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, understand that live 2/4 and 3/6 plays like online microlimits

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been curious as to why this is true. If you have a large enough bankroll to play 2/4 live, why wouldn't you play 2/4 online? Is it simply a matter of: ".5/1 is the smallest I can find online, and 2/4 is the smallest I can find in a B&M?"

[thirddan]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it simply a matter of: ".5/1 is the smallest I can find online, and 2/4 is the smallest I can find in a B&M?"

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so...I have friends taht play .50/1 or 1/2 on party and they think that playing 2/4 or 3/6 at a casino is too intimidating or expensive even though the game is probably much softer...

for what its worth i play the same limits online as in the casino (3/6) mostly because the only limits around are 3/6 or 6/12 and to me thats a pretty huge jump...they need some 4/8 or 5/10 in SF /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
".5/1 is the smallest I can find online, and 2/4 is the smallest I can find in a B&M?"

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is it exactly. I'm not sure how much overlap there is between online and live players; lots of online players do not have live play as a viable option. Those that do overlap probably play at the same level, but that might not be that many campared to the number of people you see online.

[Big Blind]

Try watching one or two people for two or three rounds and count how many flops they see. If they see 25 out of 30 flops, then you know they're playing too many hands (way too many). After that, pay attention to when and how often they raise. Watching for cold calls is excellent advice, but I think the most important thing is to start by only watching one or two players. There's no way you can keep up with the whole table.

[River2Pair]

After you play a certain length of time with players, you get a sense of their rhythm. If they have some experience playing limit hold-em, then they know that most betting decisions are fairly routine and don't take long to make. So if you see someone break their normal rhythm, try to figure out why and act accordingly.

Typical weak player on the river after being bet into, shrugs his shoulders, has sort of a pained expression on his face, asks for time, and then throws in a raise, I'd say over 95% of the time he just made the absolute nuts on the river.

Routine Caro weak-means-strong and strong-means-weak tells come up all the time in low limit games. You might be tempted to think that someone is trying a reverse tell, but I have seen very few players below 6-12 live give their opponents enough credit to even bother with second, third, fourth level thinking, even if they know how to do it in the first place. Shaking hands are the most common giveaway of a very strong hand.

Basically, Caro says that you should figure out what your opponent wants you to do, and then disappoint him by doing the opposite.

Caro's Book of Tells is much more specific and is a worthwhile read.

[JimRivett]

Hello Wyatt,

I haven't played at Hawaiian Gardens in about a year, however I would imagine very little has changed.

The first thing you have to realize about low limit live games is the rake, I'm pretty sure that $4.00 ($3.00 for the house $1.00 for the bad beat jack pot) is being taken out of each pot in that 3/6 game, that's more than a small bet! It's also a very big obstacle to overcome no matter how good a player you are.

Now if you like live play and enjoy the company and are not too concerned about winning, just having a good time then HI can be a fun place, you may even learn to speak a little Vietamese! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif (I did!). However if you are planning to play low limit to get some experience and then move up (the 15/30 & 20/40 games at HI used to be very good) you may want to play 4/8 or even the green chip games (6/12 or 8/16).

The only other advice I can offer, if you want to play low limit, is to consider playing online, the rake is much lower and you are dealt more hands per hour.

Hope this helps,
Jim

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


for what its worth i play the same limits online as in the casino (3/6) mostly because the only limits around are 3/6 or 6/12 and to me thats a pretty huge jump...they need some 4/8 or 5/10 in SF /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that sounds weird. But take solace in the fact that those Lucky Chances 3/6 games are pretty soft. Even if it's not 4/8, it's easy money (unless the climate has drastically changed since I was last there).

[TommyO]

You can learn a lot about a player just watching what they raise with. Some players only raise with monster hands. I actually played with a guy last night that only raised when he had a straight or better. Watch out for the players who raise with second or third pair or just overcards. These players are either really good or really bad. It won't take long to figure out which.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
for what its worth i play the same limits online as in the casino (3/6) mostly because the only limits around are 3/6 or 6/12 and to me thats a pretty huge jump...they need some 4/8 or 5/10 in SF

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, I have that same problem too... I don't know of any casinos in the bay area that spread 4-8 or 5-10. I always just thought that was normal until I went back east, and since I've heard people on here talking. Now I just don't get it?? They always spread 4-8 O8b though for some reason, but maybe its just b/c it has 1/2 kill that makes it 6-12.

BTW I think coldcalling PF raises is a great thing to make a mental note of, as well as limpin from early position. Of course if you can see the cards they do that with its much better, but even still, if you just notice them doing it several times you can be 99% sure that they're doing it more than they should, and you want them in your game. Bisons advice is great about just pikcing out 1 player, but I think that just making little notes like that about who's probably bad helps a little too. With the huge rake in those games you shouldn't be playing if there's not at least 3-5 bad players.