2/4 Hand where I bluff raise the river

[spamuell]

Hi HUSH forum, hopefully some of you remember me from your SS days, I know I'm not that known around these parts.

We had been five handed for quite a while at this table, UTG and MP were very loose and passive and would pretty much call down any pair. SB was very loose and aggressive and usually check-raised pairs and bet his draws. SB and I have a bit of a history (only at this table) and we both know the other to be very aggressive and have both called down the other player with very little and won.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP folds.

River: (8 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>...

Final Pot: 11 BB

As I played this, I would raise the flop when SB bets when it's heads-up the whole time, especially given he's far more likely to have a draw than a pair. I knew the two players behind me wouldn't fold if they did have a pair and I had lost a fair amount trying to outplay the SB but being called down by one of the other players. I also felt that if I did raise the flop, SB would 3-bet me with almost any draw and if the turn blanked, I was going to have a hard time putting any more money in the pot. He was aggressive but not a complete maniac, and he would overplay overcards on this board thinking it unlikely that I had paired, but not always. Should I have raised the flop?

If not, should I have raised the turn?

On the river, I am pretty sure that he has a draw enough of the time that I want to somehow try to win this pot. Should I perhaps have just called though, as almost any draw except overcards I still beat and he'd likely raise Ax and good Kx's pre-flop and fold the other ones? Also, if he has 3x (and I think he would bet bottom pair a lot of the time in an effort to protect) then I can win with Q-high.

As it went, the hand really confused me and I'm pretty sure I didn't play it well.

Any comments would be appreciated.

[kiddo]

You raise preflop with QJs and I guess its ok if they play almost any 2. But then the flop totally misses you. You are up against 3 loose players, 1 aggressive and 2 passive. You are sitting with Q high. And the aggressive one bets into you.

Why are you not folding?

Bluff one loose player is hard, bluff 2 is very hard and bluff 3 is impossible.

You are talking a lot about him being aggressive with any draw. Ok, but in what way is this a drawish flop?

763, 2 spades?

Do you really think he is on a draw betting into you 3 guys? I think its much more likely he is sitting with 1 pair (like K7o) then 2 low cards making a straightdraw or 2 flushcards.

But ok, if u do a loose call on flop hoping for that pair you of course have to call turn when you hit your draw (he will never fold, why raise?). And on river, when that 1/25 hitting your flopdraw dosent hit, well, if you want to win it, raising is possible. But against someone capable of betting all the way with worse then Q high (u say u can beat a lot of drawing hands) I would say its -EV.

You are saying:

[ QUOTE ]
I had lost a fair amount trying to outplay the SB but being called down by one of the other players

[/ QUOTE ]

And honestly, I get the feeling that in this hand "outplaying" this loose-aggressive player is more important then playing winning poker. Against 3 loose players its normally showdown-poker, save your money for the flops when you hit.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
You raise preflop with QJs and I guess its ok if they play almost any 2. But then the flop totally misses you. You are up against 3 loose players, 1 aggressive and 2 passive. You are sitting with Q high. And the aggressive one bets into you.

Why are you not folding?


[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is offering me 9:1 and the players behind me are very unlikely to raise. If I value the overcards as 4 outs and a backdoor flush draw as 1.5 outs then I have a clear call. Factor in that I have the best hand a lot of the time, and that if I fold here after raising pre-flop out of the BB, he's just going to take more shots and it's going to be difficult to call down as most of the time I don't have much of a hand, due to the nature of playing shorthanded, I think I have to call.

[naphand]

You do not have not have the best hand a lot of the time.

[spamuell]

You do not have not have the best hand a lot of the time.

I would think I do a significant amount of the time given that I think he'd checkraise lots of pairs, but getting to showdown that hand is something else and if I can't, I don't suppose it matters.

I think Kiddo is right that I do try to outplay the LAG too much. I'm constantly worried they've noticed how tight I am and they are bluff raising me on boards where I am unlikely to have paired. Sometimes I'm right, I don't know if it's enough.

[Quindle]

It's hard to know what you're trying to accomplish by representing the Ace with a river raise.

For a start, it looks very suspicious, particularly as you saw no need to protect your hand on the flop or turn. So all other things being equal SB is already going to err on the side of calling.

An ace always calls

A 6 or 7 reraises

A big PP calls

A baby PP, baby flush draw, busted straight, or a 3 folds. And in your worst nightmares reraises.

So it all comes down to what Ks and Qs do.

I'd imagine K-high calls a fair percentage of the time (40% 50%?), so you've won the pot those times it folds. Q-high probably folds nearly all the time (80% 90%?), so you've gained half the pot.

What's more you've said that pre-flop action tends against the liklihood of SB having A or decent K.

Which makes the raise probably the worst option after calling and folding. You probably did it out of frustration and a burning desire to outplay the opposition. I've been there all too often myself... it's a terrible leak.