broke a rule at the table

[willie]

an interesting thing happened to me last friday night

no limit table, 1,2 40 min buy in

*sorry for not clarifying*******************
This is at a casino, 8 strangers my friend and i at the table.
**************************

i'm mp with ak hearts, folded to me so i raise to 7 dollars


all fold to my friend in the bb (my actual friend, i live with the kid) he calls.

he says "check dark" as the flop rolls

kqx.

I bet out 10 dollars into the pot

"ARE YOU SERIOUS? UGH..I'M ALL IN"

so i call.

he has aq, i hold up and take down a gigantic pot.

this was my second time at a bm casino EVER and i did not know that i should have been checking it down. table and buddy gave me a real hard time about it

i know i messed up in retrospect, but he made a huuuuge mistake since comin over the top of me i think too- cause when he did that I figured that all bets were off......

other folks at the table said that you typically check down when headsup in a pot with your friend, since you're not there to take each others money.

[Edge34]

Who said you should be checking it down?

Nice hand sir...you did nothing wrong.

-Edge

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
anyone ever done somethin this stupid?


[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, you should have bitch slapped him in the face for being such a [censored].

this is the worst thread ever.

also raise more than that preflop.

your home games must be boring as [censored] with all the checking down post flop that goes on.

[pshreck]

Willie, can you enlighten us all to what in the hell it is your talking about?

[willie]

hm, everyone seemed to agree with my buddy at the CASINO

our home tournies are basic go at it run of the mill tournies

but supposedly in a casino if you're headsup against your friend you should just be checkin it down.......

i didn't feel like i did anything wrong all i could say was

"i'm sorry for callin the all in with the best hand"

[Penetrater]

Agreed. Even my closest friends are my enemies while we sit. I am trying to get everyone's money and that includes them. Your buddy is just sore about the fifty bucks you relieved him of. Buy him a beer, call him cowboy and rub it in. See if that doesn't solve your moral dilemma.

[Evan]

If he's pissed and you think you were wrong then just give him back whatever you won. Doesn't that seem easy enough?

[pshreck]

Not really understanding this. I've played Foxwoods numerous times, and many tables in AC. Any time there is a hint of friend collusion it generally pisses the table off, and no one ever accepts it (for the most part). Your meaning to tell me you found some table where in fact people get angry when you didn't softplay your friend? At most tables your friend would get in trouble (kicked out possibly) for implying that you are softplaying eachother. The fact that it was heads up means no one gets hurt, but if there was a third player in that could be grounds for both of you getting the boot.

What in the hell casino was this?

[willie]

[ QUOTE ]
Not really understanding this. I've played Foxwoods numerous times, and many tables in AC. Any time there is a hint of friend collusion it generally pisses the table off, and no one ever accepts it (for the most part). Your meaning to tell me you found some table where in fact people get angry when you didn't softplay your friend? At most tables your friend would get in trouble (kicked out possibly) for implying that you are softplaying eachother. The fact that it was heads up means no one gets hurt, but if there was a third player in that could be grounds for both of you getting the boot.

What in the hell casino was this?

[/ QUOTE ]

it was headsup. seneca niagara.

[Edge34]

The people at the table, including your friend, were idiots. There's no such "rule" as checking down when you're heads-up, with your friend, your grandma, or a complete stranger. Take his stack, then buy him a drink at the bar afterwards. Plain and simple, this is poker, baby.

-Edge

[Evan]

Its generally excepted in heads up pots everywhere I've played.

[pshreck]

OK. Well just to help you clarify.... there is in fact no common play in a casino to soft play your friends. In most places it is forbidden. Maybe it is different at this casino. Either way, you did nothing wrong.

[willie]

thanks for the clarification yall.

and i gave him back about 20 of the 70 or so i jacked from him....

i wasn't even aware that i was doin somethin improper when i called, and according to everyone here....i wasn't anyway /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RogerZBT]

Well I'll be a dissenter. Whenever my friend and I are heads up we ALWAYS check it down.

The biggest reason is the only person who is going to consistently win is the house. There's no pattern to it,and we're about even in skill so I can't think of any reason why one of us should, in the long run, win a much greater percentage of the hands. Basically we'd just be giving the casino more money?

As for people getting upset about our checking it down, it has yet to happen, or at least not enough for anyone to comment on. We never hide the fact that we're friends. If we go to the end with another person we always show both hands without being asked.

[KC50]

Especially since you returned some of your friends $$$ to him.

Take this scenario.

Player A (you) make somewhat of a standard raise and player B (other than your friend) decides to smooth call. Now player C (your friend) raises let's say the pot or more (with or without a hand) then you go over the top of your friend with say AA? Now it's obvious to player B (who had 77) that his hand is no good and he mucks. Player C (your friend) calls your raise with KK. Now you both check it down from the flop on. Your turn over your AA and take it down.

You both have legitimate hands and you check it down!

So what's to stop you 2 now doing this with no hands at all?

This to me is a form of collusion. You tell me?

KC

[Al_Capone_Junior]

The other folks at the table were simply WRONG. When I play against my friends, we ram and jam each other, and often times this is HARDER than we might ram and jam a tourist. Years ago Clarkmeister and I both made posts about hands we played against each other (one a 3-6 hand, the other a 10-20 hand where Clark pummelled me), and we certainly did NOT soft-play it! If you feel you need to soft-play your friends, just don't play at their table.

If you are soft-playing someone who is obviously your buddy, others at the table may feel you are colluding. While you may not actually be colluding, the mere appearance of it might piss off the fish, which is of course BAD. If you were to do so in a tournament, you would be (correctly) penalized and have to take a time out.

al

[sfer]

When I play friends, which means other 2+2ers, the goal is to absolutely punish the other party. They feel the same way about me. I want to get better and softplaying isn't going to accomplish that.

Also, your friend is retarded. If he wanted to check it down, he could have just asked you to check it down. And, when he moved in, did he expect a call from a worse hand? He's not worried about overcards at that point.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
When I play friends, which means other 2+2ers, the goal is to absolutely punish the other party

[/ QUOTE ]

I can vouch for this as I've been the punished on several occasions.

[Warior]

I hear that, I warn anyone I know if they decide to play at my table I will go after their stack like I would anyone else.

[Sponger15SB]

ugh.... your post is so pathetic.

[RydenStoompala]

You've already thanked people and signed off, but I've got to get my three cents in. I've never heard of this "rule," but if it did exist, the person who made it up should be fed into a snowblower an inch at a time.

[eh923]

If I was at a table, and two obvious friends checked down AK and AQ with that flop, I'd have a friendly chat with the manager.

Tell your friend to get the sand out of his vagina.

[shant]

I play limit, so it may be different, but I'm not at the casino to take my friend's money. If other people are in the hand, we play it the way we would normally. If we're heads up, we check it down.

I don't see the problem with that, and I've never had anyone say anything about it. I've also seen a lot of other people do it when they're heads up.

This is at Commerce in LA.

[Slacker13]

That is not true. I love my friends and all but there is no way in hell I am checking down pots to them.

[EarlCat]

[ QUOTE ]
That is not true. I love my friends and all but there is no way in hell I am checking down pots to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have the chance of losing big by calling an all-in, I'd rather lose it to a friend than a stranger. At least I might convince the friend to buy dinner or something.

[Francis Begbie]

Doyle Brunson would kick your ass if he saw this. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[chesspain]

Tell your friend to remember to change his tampon, lest he get toxic shock.

[ohiou]

Almost every time that I have been at a Casino my brother (who taught me how to play for the most part) is at the table with me. Personally, we think it is more fun to take each other's money.

Last time he busted me and wouldn't even buy me breakfast. Anyway, I have never heard of such a thing.

[Rick Nebiolo]

...two sentences:

When all players softplay everyone else all of the time poker is not interesting or fun. When some players engage in softplay the game is not fair for everyone.

If someone can come up with two or at most three better sentences I'm all ears. I've finally learned you need to keep your persuasive arguments simple inside the casino /images/graemlins/grin.gif


And a few other thoughts ...

I *virtually* never softplay (my reasons are similar to those who expressed their opinions elsewhere) yet I see it all too often. It hurts the game, but often it is tolerated if the softplayers are perceived as weak players. When tough players softplay, there are usually objections and hard feelings if it continues.

As a part time no limit host at the Bicycle Casino in Los Angeles I monitor the play of many people who are new to poker. Usually most couples/friends don't softplay, if anything they play harder because most can see it is more fun and interesting to play hard.

When I do see excessive softplay by the "friendly newcomers", I play it by ear. For example, sometimes I encourage them to switch tables saying something to the effect that they might have more fun playing against "real opponents". Other times I'll use a varient of my two sentences from the beginning of this post. Finding the right words for each situation takes finesse. I'm trying to keep my arguments simple, short, and inoffensive. I'll take suggestions.

There are other times it is clear the softplayers are otherwise clueless and the rest of the table wants to play with them despite their softplay. I'll generally let it go, but it still can lead to problems. I'm open to suggestions here too.

Softplay is pervasive in many games and venues. Unfortunately it is hard to stop, but it would help if most of us could agree that it is in fact wrong and bad for poker.

Regards,

Rick

* By *virtually* above I mean (for example) that I might let a weak player keep a few chips that should have played (when they have gone all in and I have a hand).

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey guys,

I frequently play at the same table live with my roommate, usually 20/40. We would never even think of soft-playing each other, nor has there ever been any discussion between us about possibly doing it. It's just never even been an option for either of us. If neither of us wanted to play against each other, i.e. take the other's money, then we wouldn't have entered the pot with them to begin with. Also, when I'm at a poker table, I'm in a certain mindset. It's best desciption would be emptiness I suppose. Acknowledging or offering benevolency toward my sole opponent in a pot definitely does not fit in anywhere into that mindset.

As a sidenote, playing headsup pots against each other and discussing the sometimes close and/or tough decisions that come of them has undoubtedly improved both of our games. That's not the reason I do it (and I suspect it doesn't have anything to do with my roommate's decision to either), but it is an added plus.

It is common for friends or friendlies to check things down headsup, and I'm totally okay with that in ring games. Tournaments are different and that stuff should fly, but in rings games, whatev. The people who get upset at crap like this at the tables are stupid nitty stupid nits who get so caught up in the fine print of the rules that they can't take a step back and think about what's best for the game. They're the same people objecting to people giving chips back, making deals, playing with the rock, etc. In general, these people are bad for poker games and just bad at poker in general.

GoT

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
In most places it is forbidden.

[/ QUOTE ]

not true. softplaying to a casino is mucking the winner, then showing your cards(big no-no). checking down is perfectly acceptable everywhere i've ever played. i'm always at the table with my wife, so we do this somewhat regularly. it saves rake, and the dealer, nor the casino are bothered when you do it.

cheers!

[C LO]

You made the right move. When you sit down at the poker table have no mercy on anybody, EVER. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bunky9590]

I play poker with a lot of people, I play poker with friends. If one of them ever soft played me and checked it down, we wouldn't be friendly long. If we're there to play, Damnit, PLAY!.

I'd checkraise my mother all in if she was at the table with me, I'd tell her I love her after it was over, but if she's brave enough to sit at my table, her money is in play.

End of file.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm always at the table with my wife, so we do this somewhat regularly. it saves rake, and the dealer, nor the casino are bothered when you do it.


[/ QUOTE ]

why would you do it with your wife? afraid one of you might go broke or something?

it doesn't save anything in rake in the casinos that i've been to, where they take money out right when it gets to the flop.

also, the dealers are there to deal the damn cards, not get angry when you are your wife decide to play poker instead of checking it down like lil wussies.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
I play poker with a lot of people, I play poker with friends. If one of them ever soft played me and checked it down, we wouldn't be friendly long. If we're there to play, Damnit, PLAY!.

I'd checkraise my mother all in if she was at the table with me, I'd tell her I love her after it was over, but if she's brave enough to sit at my table, her money is in play.

End of file.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank god somebody speaks up.

I wouldn't check raise my mom, but I'd certainly wait till the turn and raise her.

I once saw a mr WPT wannabe check raise an old granny rock 3 streets in a row only to lose to the nuts...WHAT A [censored]! I almost had to leave the table because I couldn't control my laughter.

[bunky9590]

Exactly my friend. Precisely why my wife won't play against me in a casino.

She has beaten me the last 3 times we played NL HU though.
Doing the dishes for a week really sux. Worse than losing money.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Rick,

...but it would help if most of us could agree that [softplaying] is in fact wrong and bad for poker.

I disagree with this mentality in general. I have absolutely no objections if players in my game want to start being friendly in this regard, e.g. checking the river through headsup when they know they have their opponent beat, telling their opponent they have a very strong hand allowing them to fold earlier than they otherwise would have, etc. You'll never catch me giving these types of courtesies, but I don't see how this isn't beneficial to me, as they will sometimes extend me the same courtesies, much less how it could be harmful. Occasionally a hand will play out such that my opponent might be inclined to think that I had softplayed them as a friendly gesture. In these situations, I'll make a comment to the affirmative, confirming their suspicions, which will often buy me a bet or three throughout the rest of my session. Is this unethical? I would contest not.

In the same line of thinking, do you also look down on practices such as "one back" or tossing your opponent back a bet after you drag a pot off them?

GoT

[Trainwreck]

No friends at the table, his money is as good as anyone elses?

It seems unusual that the other players said a word, let alone preaching at you 2.

>TW<

[Easy E]

A lot of what you wrote seemed contradictory, but THIS part:

<font color="blue">other folks at the table said that you typically check down when headsup in a pot with your friend, since you're not there to take each others money. </font>

At the poker table, I'm there to take everyone's money. Friendship has nothing to do with it- I'm not soft-playing anyone just because I know them.

[SCfuji]

buy your friend a beer and tell him to reload so you can take more of his money. no friends at the table. that is just absurd. either play normal or play at different tables, because having friends in your pots decreases your ability to make money immensely.

[SCfuji]

no dinner for bunky tonight.

[bunky9590]

Bunky doesn't live at home with Mommy.

Stopped that stuff 15 years ago. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
It is common for friends or friendlies to check things down headsup, and I'm totally okay with that in ring games. Tournaments are different and that stuff should fly, but in rings games, whatev. The people who get upset at crap like this at the tables are stupid nitty stupid nits who get so caught up in the fine print of the rules that they can't take a step back and think about what's best for the game. They're the same people objecting to people giving chips back, making deals, playing with the rock, etc. In general, these people are bad for poker games and just bad at poker in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

Over the years I've become far less nitty so the fact is I accept reality and usually don't publicly object to the things you mention above. I agree that it is usually the weakest players with the poorest understanding of poker ethics/manners/procedure/strategy and correcting them will usually tighten them up and hurt the gambling mood of the table. However, when I see props or a top player solicit significant softplay or pushes I am more likely to speak up.

I do believe the 9/18 Omaha game (http://tinyurl.com/47nm2) at the Commerce was ruined by excessive and inappropriate pushing arrangements. The tightest player (evil seat 3) pushed with three or four of the loosest players - as much as eight $3 chips on a kill pot scoop. When others sat down they often felt very uncomfortable and it was evident to anyone with a three digit IQ that the playing field wasn't level. Players who objected were in fact bullied. As you can see from the thread, the pushing was public knowledge (Google "evil seat 3/three" for more).

~ Rick

PS I'll try to answer your other post if I can get it in before my friend comes over.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Rick wrote...but it would help if most of us could agree that [softplaying] is in fact wrong and bad for poker.

I disagree with this mentality in general. I have absolutely no objections if players in my game want to start being friendly in this regard, e.g. checking the river through headsup when they know they have their opponent beat, telling their opponent they have a very strong hand allowing them to fold earlier than they otherwise would have, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the reality of poker, I sort of agree. Generally it is weaker gambling types who do this and objecting in this type of situation nits and/or tightens up the game.

[ QUOTE ]
You'll never catch me giving these types of courtesies, but I don't see how this isn't beneficial to me, as they will sometimes extend me the same courtesies, much less how it could be harmful.

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone clearly softplays me and I feel I have an ability to civily communicate with that person, I'll generally say something like "Hey, don't be afraid to bet your hand hard against me, poker is more fun for all of us if we play hard and I'll never be upset." When a prop who worked under me did this, I gave him his river bet (he checked behind me with the nuts). As I grow older and hopefully wiser I try to combine keeping a reaaonable sense of ethics with an appreciation of poker realities I can't easily change.

[ QUOTE ]
Occasionally a hand will play out such that my opponent might be inclined to think that I had softplayed them as a friendly gesture. In these situations, I'll make a comment to the affirmative, confirming their suspicions, which will often buy me a bet or three throughout the rest of my session. Is this unethical? I would contest not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the hand played out naturally, I would say keeping quiet and leaving it so it appears to be a friendly gesture is OK. But I would draw the line at vocally encouraging any future softplay against me.

[ QUOTE ]
In the same line of thinking, do you also look down on practices such as "one back" or tossing your opponent back a bet after you drag a pot off them?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it stopped at one chip I wouldn't. Or if someone gives someone a monster beat and pushes a bet back I wouldn't. But pushing starts a slide down a slippery slope. It often escalates to the point where a newcomer sitting at the table gets to think he is playing against a group of cousins. This can hurt games in the long run as described in my other response to you in this thread.

Regards,

Rick

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]

why would you do it with your wife? afraid one of you might go broke or something?

it doesn't save anything in rake in the casinos that i've been to, where they take money out right when it gets to the flop.

also, the dealers are there to deal the damn cards, not get angry when you are your wife decide to play poker instead of checking it down like lil wussies.

[/ QUOTE ]

a) tone it down, kid. no need to get personal with me over this issue.

b) i play against my wife in n/l tourneys all the time. i busted her out twice last Wednesday(re-buy tourney). when in a ring game at a casino, it makes no sense to contribute more than you have to in rake, when the money comes from only one source(she is a housewife, i am the earner). it has nothing to do with going broke, trust me.

cheers!




cheers!

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you do it with your wife?

[/ QUOTE ]

it fits.

cheers!

[Francis Begbie]

If you're at a casino with a friend and you're "not there to take each other's money," then don't sit at the same table as that person. If you're not playing hard against your friend, I don't see how you can argue with the fact that you're colluding to take EVERYONE ELSE'S money. If you're sitting at the same table as a friend and you're not playing against each other, then you're essentially playing as a team against the rest of the table.

[mosch]

If a few chips can get in the way of the friendship, then it wasn't much of a friendship anyway.

If your friend can't afford to lose his stack, then as a friend, you should tell him to get up and go do something else instead. But first you should set him in and take all his money. Especially if he'll call-in with second pair.

I literally couldn't begin to count the number of huge pots that I've contested heads-up with good friends, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

[willie]

yikes this thread has taken off.

don't fret guys, i haven't and i won't softplay anyone- ever. i'll make it clear to any of my friends that are sittin at the same table in the future as well.

thanks for straightening me out /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[CORed]

If you're not willing to check-raise your mother, you shouldn't be playing poker.

[47outs]

I wasn't there for all the bitching but I think I was at your table at one point. Are you the guy with the gold avaitor shades?

outs

[willie]

nah, i was just wearing a khaki hat with mesh sides (lucky hat from hiking through europe)

only regular glasses....no sunglasses

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Rick,

Thanks for your response and your thoughts. You've been in this business a long time, so your opinions are very much appreciated. Keep up the good work.

GoT