Boats

[Schneids]

In my mind neither of these hands presented as routine of river decisions (or perhaps even turn decisions) as I'd like... Anyone else?:

Hand One

Schneids is dealt K/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the button.

2 folds, CO limps, Schneids raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Co calls, Schneids calls.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB bets, CO calls, Schneids raises, SB 3-bets, CO calls, Schneids calls.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB checks, CO bets, Schneids raises, SB 3-bets, CO calls, Schneids calls.

River: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB bets, CO raises, Schneids...?



Hand Two

Schneids is dealt 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in UTG+1

1 fold, Schneids raises, CO 3-bets, two folds, BB calls, Schneids calls.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif
BB checks, Schneids checks, CO bets, BB calls, Schneids calls.

Turn: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB checks, Schneids checks, CO bets, BB raises, Schneids 3-bets, CO caps, BB calls, Schneids calls.

River: J/images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, Schneids...?

[spydog]

Hand 1: The SB hasn't missed an opportunity to bet or raise the whole way. He probably doesn't put you on a 9, considering your raise PF, he's either got A9 (doubtful) or TT+. I don't think he would lead the river with JJ or QQ, so it's down to AA (6 combos), KK (3 combos), or TT (3 combos). CO could have anything, probably the flush. But why would he lead the turn? His play baffles me. I think this is a 3-bet with CO along for the ride.

Hand 2: You have 1 person that closed the turn betting and 1 that might have, given the opportunity. At first glance, I thought easy check raise because you can be sure someone will bet. However, I think leading, with the hope of being raised, could be just as valid. At least this option doesn't risk the dreaded check-thru.

[Guido]

KK has only 1 combo. I agree with you about the river plays.

Guido

[spydog]

Oops. Forgot about the K in Hero's hand.

[Danenania]

There is also the possibility of 66 for the SB in Hand 1. I think it could fit his play and makes a 3-bet even better.

I agree with you on Hand 2.

[Scotch78]

Hand 1:
I'm going to dissent and make a crying call. SB put in the last flop bet, then check-raised the turn. Why would AA or KK take this line? I can't think of any reason, but I can think of plenty of players who'd automatically try to check-raise with a full house. To make it a little clearer, he also put in the last bet (which was also a 3-bet) on the turn, and yet he led out on the river. That ten changed his hand, plain and simple. In all honesty I don't think you're ahead often enough to even justify the cold call, but I couldn't bring myself to fold a boat.

Hand 2:
I'm going to dissent again and check. The CO capped two check-raisers. If he was oblivious enough not to put at least one of you on the 9, then I'm certain you would have noticed it. Since you didn't mention him being an uberfish, I don't think he's worried about trip nines. The only hand I can see him holding that provides that confidence is KK.

Scott

[joker122]

hand 1: i have no idea.
hand 2: check call. i don't see what CO is capping the turn with besides KK.

[joker122]

what do you put CO on in hand 2?

[joker122]

I'm pretty sure folding in hand 1 is ridiculous.

Hand 2: I agree completely.

[Danenania]

Everyone's forgetting 66. I feel that TT and 66 are almost equally likely for SB.

[jgorham]

A consideration for hand 1 is that there is pretty much no way you are folding your hand, and if the blind has TT it is probably gonna be 4 bets. At this point I put the CO on 69 or 9T (or even 9K). I really doubt he would play a flush that aggressively against 2 players who have shown so much action. So: if you call and the blind has TT (or KK) then he is gonna 3 bet, which will make the CO probably 4 bet. Maybe you could fold at that point, but I don't think I could (at least without strong reads on the non-maniacal nature of each player). Since that is the case I would raise and hope for the best, because if you are behind it was happening anyway, and you don't want to miss the bets when you are up!

Hand 2 I would probably bet the river and call a raise.

[Scotch78]

I can think of 2 reasons why 66 is less likely than TT. First, the 3-bet pre-flop. That's very LAGgy and Schneids would've noticed such behavior. Second, it doesn't make sense for the same reason that AA and KK don't make sense: he played the turn differently from the flop and river. If he flopped the full house why would he check-raise the turn, but not the river? Both times, he put in the last bet on the previous round, so this would leave nothing (the CO's turn bet /images/graemlins/confused.gif) to account for him playing the turn differently.

Scott

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
At this point I put the CO on 69 or 9T (or even 9K).

[/ QUOTE ]

T9 and 96 would've likely capped the turn. I think he has a flush draw, maybe A /images/graemlins/heart.gif, T /images/graemlins/heart.gif, and was probably thinking things like, "Why didn't the button cap the flop if he had a 9?" and, "Why did the SB just check?" He was trying to steal and got caught, then made his flush on the river.

Scott

[jgorham]

yeah that is certainly possible, in any case I put him on something I beat. What do you think of my river logic for hand 1?

[Scotch78]

My first thoughts on the hand were similar to yours, but then I started wondering why the SB check-raised the turn and gave up on my previous thoughts. SH play definitely rewards aggression, so that's probably why you and I both immediately thought about raising instead of calling twice, but I think it's misplaced this time. The "bet when you're going to call anyways" line is basically a semi-bluff to give others a chance to fold. That's not the case here, so as you said it comes down to making sure the bets go in when you're behind and when you're ahead. First off, I don't think Schneids is ahead anywhere near often enough on this hand. Second, I'm not entirely sure the CO will cap it with a flush.

Scott

[Guido]

Not a lot of hands but AA, AK and KK are all possible...

[jgorham]

Yeah those are good points - i am sure I will think about this hand a lot more. Not really sure what good it is though (besides the fact that it is good to think about poker) because this has to be one of the rarest situations in hold em.... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[DrSavage]

I would raise hand 1 and bet hand 2.

[I_am_B]

Not to be offensive, but I can't believe some of the lines people are taking on these hands. First of all, I think more player info needs to be provided in order to make the most precise decisions in these situations, but I'll assume that you just sat down at each table AND that these aren't completely wild players.

Hand One: This is between a call and a professional fold, even on the turn potentially (and again, this depends on the player). He could not have flopped the boat becasue he 3-bet the flop, ostensibly to make CO's flush draw pay more (it makes sense that he limped with something like A3h and would bet the turn like idiots do when checked to). Honestly though, who would check-reraise AA or KK on the turn after the straight card hits? I think there are many players that could ONLY be holding TT in this situation and, if Schneids were a better player, would have gotten out on the turn ;-) (disclaimer: this is not a statement of how good I am in that spot :-P). But I know he likes to go for those 1 outers once in a while, and they're fun to hit, so a mostly gratuitous call can be accepted here. On the river: definitely not a raise, obviously, and you are about 99% sure you have the CO beat, so I guess a crying call can be made, including the call of the reraise (and cap too for that matter...certainly don't let the CO's wildness/potential cheating get you off of it...your fold should be completely based off of where you think the SB is at).

Hand 2: this is the most obvious decision and perfectly illustrates the 2+2 overanalysis syndrome that I see often here. Look at the turn: there are no draws, period, other than your double belly busting JT, conceivably (as far as possible hands people could get creative with, and even then, there is a pair on board making that less-than-acute). What would the CO call a check-reraise with after betting, much less CAP???? I mean, how many of us would even call those two extra bets with AA in that spot? But he CAPPED! If we're talking about getting extra value out of the hand, if indeed the CO is being retarded and doesn't have KK, then he already gave our hero the extra 2 big bets he would be looking for on the river! And if he's on wild tilt by capping the turn with anything other than KK, he'll probably bet the river too thinking his AA is good or bluffing with whatever else he could be holding (let's throw A9 in as a possibility, which he WOULD likely bet the river with anyway, which would give Schneids the perfect backdoor call since it's more likely that the blind would call the CO's bet, being the first to call the bet instead of having to overcall Snide's bet. All that being said, this is one of the most obvious check-crying-calls that I've seen on here.

Again, not to denigrate others' thoughts with my commentary, but let's not overexaggerate the possibilities.

B

[Scotch78]

Since you didn't add anything to the discussion except the inflammatory remarks, how are people supposed to take your post as anything but denigrating?

Scott

[RED_RAIN]

With my very limited experience of 6-max and without reading any of the other responses...In hand one of K9o...I am leaning towards capping the turn as I feel we are most of the itme in the lead, perhaps that would have changed the river...I don't like SB check/3-betting as I've learned this usually represents a huge hand...I'm not sure if Schneids is afriad of pocket Ts or pocket 6s here because of the 3 bet preflop that's the only hands I can give him that beats us...I would lean towards pocket Ts more than 6s but still don't believe it enough not to cap the turn and see river action...I wouldn't be suprised to see CO show QhJh probably more often than Ks. I'm tempted to just call here as I'm thinking it's likely that SB might make it 3 bets with Ts full or his Qs or As here. On Hand 2 of pocket 7s...I would bet out and then just call a raise if I gave CO credit enough of having pocket Ks...that way if it's raised, I get to see the BB's action and it is likely to only go to 2 BBs instead of check/raising and having it go to 3 when I'm behind and not likely making a lot more if I'm ahead. I'll read responses now

[Scotch78]

Results?

[citanul]

Schneids,

I'm completely foreign to the shorthanded game, is K9o normal to raise there?

I like both lines to the river, I think. I think you've got to raise both rivers. Big pots, you clearly can't fold, and you're very likely ahead, I think. You're likely going to get paid in more than one spot in each hand when good, and I can't see you not being good a large enough percentage of the time to make raising incorrect.

Hand 1 seems much clearer than Hand 2 to me, since I really want to put at least one of them on a flush draw, and the other on some other 9 would make me happy and be consistent, but an overpair too would work. Specifically, SB I'd like to put on some random overpair, which means we're screwed against TT and KK, and other guy I'm putting on flush draw. I think it's the overlay from the 2nd guy that makes me really not want to slow down. I'm assuming it's not completely out of character for this game to have the SB have AK either.

Hand 2, well, I put in the bets, and when I lose to a bigger full house (again with the overlay of a second guy who lord knows what he has, in my mind) I go "nice hand, I guess that sometimes happens when you go for the turn raise.

Am I completely out of line?

citanul

[Ulysses]

Hand 1: Cap the turn. As things went, 3-bet the river.

Hand 2: Bet. Against some opponents I call a raise, against others I 3-bet. I would have bet or checkraised the flop.

[MAxx]

Yo B, I don't think anything is offensive about your post. However, I think that the fact that you would even consider folding hand one and proudly label your fold as professional makes me question your skills. That's awful nice pot to fold a full boat against assumed unknowns. Folding hand one would be a wrecklessly bad decision IMO, maybe I would call it a "Wanna-be Professional Fold"

Edit: For the record, I am taking Savages' line as well.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
This is between a call and a professional fold
, even on the turn potentially

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding here is sick and wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly though, who would check-reraise AA or KK on the turn after the straight card hits?

[/ QUOTE ]

>75% of players in that game will give that much action w/ AA.



[ QUOTE ]
What would the CO call a check-reraise with after betting, much less CAP???? I mean, how many of us would even call those two extra bets with AA in that spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

90+% of players in that game would take AA to showdown here if both the turn and river got capped.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, not to denigrate others' thoughts with my commentary, but let's not overexaggerate the possibilities.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't play in these games, do you?

[Schneids]

Let me warn you I play like a wimp and feel shamed.

Hand One:

I call, SB calls. CO shows K9, I show K9, SB mucks AA.

Hand Two:

I check, CO bets, BB calls, I call. CO shows AA, BB shows, 69, I win with boat.


As an aside maybe it is important that both holders of AA who overplayed their hand were down to about $20 after this hand. It is very reasonable to assume that they went into the hand with the attitude "I'm done if my AA loses" and were basically willing to get all-in with it.

Additionally, no I do not always raise K9o PF there, but against this particular CO's limp I gladly would.

Thank you for the massive amount of responses.

[I_am_B]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't play in these games, do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the thoughts, Diablo and others. I stand corrected based on the previous gap in our perception of what constitutes typical players. Admittedly, I am an on and off 6-maxer (more "off" lately), and I am more inclined to give people too much credit, especially online (probably the opposite of what I should do). However, I will close by saying that those plays by each player holding AA were completely asinine and I look forward to taking their money. :-) Schneids was prodding me to contribute here, and it looks like I swung and missed. :-P

B

[Scotch78]

Schnieds and Diablo,

I've never played the 10/20, and only dabbled in the 5/10; is this fairly typical play or were these players big LAGs? Also, I gave these hands a lot of thought and felt that I came up with a good analysis. Do you think it was good logic that failed because it's assumptions (how the typical 10/20 player plays) were wrong, or do you think I made other mistakes?

Scott

[Schneids]

I did not notice them being big LAGS but them both being shortstacked perhaps implied they were going into tilt-mode. Or, I simply missed it. I don't remember how long I was seated at either table.