This KK hand based on Ed Millers post??

[Omaha8Player]

Hi there, this post probably belongs in the micro limit section but since my decision is based from a thread I read by Ed Miller here in the Small stake forum I post this one here.
When the A comes on the flop and the guy bets into me I yeast call down to encourage him to bluffing all the way.
But when I think about the hand I guess I should have played more aggressive because of the flush draw?
How would you have played and what kind of situations are Miller referring to in his post? Is this one of them?


Ed Millers post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=969383&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1)


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
and what kind of situations are Miller referring to in his post? Is this one of them?

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably want to ask this question in the post you are referring to (Miller's original post).

[Omaha8Player]

Ye but that is lika a mile long and very old. I hope someone will read this. I have a link to that post if you missed that.

[eh923]

This isn't too similar to the hand in Ed's post for a few reasons:
- This hand doesn't have any overcards that someone could be bluffing with (Ed's example was QQ against K-high board).
- There's a two-flush on board, so the bettor could be semi-bluffing.
- In Ed's hand, the BB defended, so his range of holdings could be much wider.

Still, I don't think calling down is a bad idea in this hand. It's not sexy, but you could be against a draw or pocket pairs like JJ or TT.

The river bet is okay, but I'd probably check behind too. I doubt you're good 50% of the time when you get called. If the guy missed his draw, he'll fold, but if he has a weak A, he'll call. Your only real shot is that he raised w/ a medium pocket pair, KQs, etc.

[MoreWineII]

I'd consider raising the flop with the K /images/graemlins/club.gif. It might buy you a free turn card too.

[Ed Miller]

I'd consider raising the flop with the K . It might buy you a free turn card too.

Why do you want a free turn card?

I discuss this situation beginning on p.175 of SSH in the subsection "The Cheap Showdown."

[Ed Miller]

The river bet is okay, but I'd probably check behind too. I doubt you're good 50% of the time when you get called. If the guy missed his draw, he'll fold, but if he has a weak A, he'll call. Your only real shot is that he raised w/ a medium pocket pair, KQs, etc.

I disagree. Once he checks the river, it's quite likely that he doesn't have an ace. He'll often call with a smaller pair. If you give these guys free showdowns in spots like this, you are rewarding them for this attempt to push you off your hand. Because sometimes you really will have zilch, and his bet will work, you need to make the most of the the spots where you do have him crushed.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
The river bet is okay, but I'd probably check behind too. I doubt you're good 50% of the time when you get called. If the guy missed his draw, he'll fold, but if he has a weak A, he'll call. Your only real shot is that he raised w/ a medium pocket pair, KQs, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of "weak-ace" hand do you think opponent raised with in EP but is now getting passive with on the river, especially since Hero failed to raise the flop or turn?

[Omaha8Player]

Thanks for replying Ed.
So you would say this is a good way to play this hand? I re-read the Cheap Showdown section were you raise whit TT but then you did that to protect your hand. Here I’m already HU so the only other play I can se here is raise the flop and if he 3 bet yeast call. If he calls my raise and check into me at the turn I bet and fold to a raise. If he tree bet the flop and bet the turn I fold.
I probably have only 2 outs so getting check raised on the turn is not that bad then, right? Easy fold?
Is this thinking correct or am I to weak?

[Omaha8Player]

BTW here is another hand very similar to the one in the book. What about this more aggressive play? The results in the hand illustrates the point I think. I won against J9o /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO (poster) checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, CO folds.

River: (7.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

[Omaha8Player]

Any more comments?

[ddubois]

I think, for me, the Cheap Showdown section of the book was the most complex.

Would you say the cheap showdown play has value against aggressive, tricky opponents, or is it still bad just "less bad" than it would be against your normal loose-passive opponents?

[Ed Miller]

Here I’m already HU so the only other play I can se here is raise the flop and if he 3 bet yeast call.

I don't recommend raising the flop.. basically because it tends to put you in exactly the situations you describe here.

I referenced the "Cheap Showdowns" section because I wanted the guy who recommended raising the flop to understand that getting a free turn card isn't really a positive in spots like this.

[Ed Miller]

Would you say the cheap showdown play has value against aggressive, tricky opponents, or is it still bad just "less bad" than it would be against your normal loose-passive opponents?

Aggressive players will 3-bet your flop raise far more often. If getting 3-bet will make you gag, it's probably not correct to raise.

[MarkD]

I don't know what Ed Miller post you are referring to (link?) but I have discussed this hand type many times and have argued for the exact line that you took.

You played the hand very well on all streets IMO, but I'm no NPA.