playing against the short stack

[hhboy77]

i've used this move in the past, but for the first time i saw someone else do it to me.

with blinds 150/300, the sb completed the blind leaving him 485 behind. i have 1700 behind and am in the bb with q3 hearts

****what do you do here?

the flop came jjt no hearts, and he moves all in

***what do you do here?

invite comments as to how i should have played this hand.

[tigerite]

Exactly how you did really, then fold to his all in, you'll get better chances at knocking him out I'd wager.

[ChrisV]

Ah, the old stop-n-go.

I think you should raise allin preflop. SB having rags is a lot more likely than him having a huge hand.

[rjb03]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, the old stop-n-go.

I think you should raise allin preflop. SB having rags is a lot more likely than him having a huge hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If you're going to contest him, do it while you can see 5 cards. Otherwise, give it up.

[gergery]

Why would you push preflop there?

He’d be getting 2.5 to 1 odds so would call for sure (unless he’s a complete fish). And your hand is only a 51% favorite vs. a random hand. If you figure he’s got better than a complete random hand to decide to play this hand instead of folding, then you are behind and potentially significantly behind. Pushing preflop just gives up your option to see a free flop.

On the flop, now that he pushes, you can put him on the stop n go and know he could have virtually anything here. You are behind to any A, K, J, T or pair. But if he had a J he’d have slowplayed, and if he has 99-22 then you have odds to call him (3 Q’s, 3 T’s give you best hand), so you have odds to call but just barely. Since you’re getting 2.5 to 1 on your money, then he needs to have Ax, Kx, Tx more than maybe ~66% of the time here to make your decision on this hand a bad one.

That’s probably close so I’d probably decide what to do based on other factors (how loose/tight/good/bad this guy is, how likely others will blow themselves up, how easily I can steal, etc)

--Greg

[rjb03]

Personally I'd take the free flop. I was just saying if you're going to make a stab at the pot I'd probably do it preflop as I just don't see too many people in low buyins (not sure of the buy in actually) complete the SB so shortstacked with a hand they won't call an all in with.

[ChrisV]

The problem with the idea of seeing a "free flop" is that you're going to be able to do the same stop-and-go calculation as you do for just about any flop (except highly coordinated ones).

I don't figure he has better than a random hand to decide to play, I think he has worse than a random hand. If he had a good hand he'd have raised allin. I think Qx rates to be a favourite here. I don't want to give him the option of check/folding a bad flop for him (e.g. three hearts).

I think checking is OK if you don't mind making tough calls e.g. on the flop that actually came down, but I'd rather put the money in preflop as I feel I'm ahead.

[rachelwxm]

Very interesting hand indeed. Here are my thoughts (assume he is a good player, read dependent of course):

He knows he does not have folding equity. And he is getting better than 1:1 odds to push because of his posting of sb. It is true that typical SitNGo would reduce variance, but we can imagine that he would push with anything better than 1:1 against random hand to have a +EV? And that includes any pair, Ax, Kx, almost any Q and J. Therefore, his complete indicates weakness to me. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

He is getting 1:3 to complete to see the flop, given the chances that you could push once he complete, he probably need to have a hand better than 32o. Otherwise, he could wait another orbit.

Therefore I would put him on 50%-80% in hand ranking although I could be totally off here.

So once he completes, I would say push is a +EV move since your hands is better against those hands.

Now on the flop JJT, I would not put him on J since it’s clearly a slow playing opportunity. But what about T, I would imagine that T8-T2 so out of 51 possible hands, 14 of those give him the lead on flop and you still have outs, while the rest of them he is very behind. There fore I would call here.

Notice I made a lot of assumptions here, so I might be totally off.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the idea of seeing a "free flop"

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that in quotes? You check or put chips in. Checking costs nothing and lets you see a flop. Once you’re at this decision point its free.

[ QUOTE ]

is that you're going to be able to do the same stop-and-go calculation as you do for just about any flop (except highly coordinated ones).

[/ QUOTE ]

True. But some flops are better for you than others. For example, if the board cam 987 all a different suit, then you would be losing to any A, K, Q, 9,8,7, and only beating a J, T. Easy fold. If the board is 224 the chances you’re ahead are much better, as he’s more likely to have folded 2,4 hands. In this case the board pairing helps you giving you extra outs.

[ QUOTE ]

I don't figure he has better than a random hand to decide to play, I think he has worse than a random hand. If he had a good hand he'd have raised allin. I think Qx rates to be a favourite here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on how good he is. Even if he has JJ or AK he still rates to only be a 2:1 or 70/30 favorite vs. many hands here. But his pushing in offers you 2.5 to 1 odds. Meaning that the pot is so big in relation to the remaining money to be bet that unless he has specifically AA/KK maybe QQ it’s still in his mathematical interest to have you fold a great many hands. If he knew you had Q3 for example, he would prefer you fold rather than call even if he held AK or JJ for example. SO, raising allin is not a great play even with a very strong hand.

And he’d also fold his worst hands, so net, Q3 is not likely to be much of a favorite if at all.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to give him the option of check/folding a bad flop for him (e.g. three hearts).

[/ QUOTE ]

With the pot this big, the vast vast majority of flops are ones where you’ll be happy to take it down. The combined probabilities of his wanting to fold and you having a monster, and him not trying to bluff if you slowplay makes this a very small concern.

[ QUOTE ]

I think checking is OK if you don't mind making tough calls e.g. on the flop that actually came down, but I'd rather put the money in preflop as I feel I'm ahead.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think pushing is ok, particularly if he can fold (ie. he’s bad, or its bubble time), but I think checking is better.