Good God almighty [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

TheHip41

11-04-2004, 11:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the raising preflop. In limit, I never slow play. I am super aggressive.

"If its worth playing, its worth raising."

I'll raise with K7 off, to pocket 2s. If I hit a flop, I know that I got the most of my money in with the best of it. If I miss, I get out as fast as possible. I've been more successful being super aggressive in limit. I hate being the CALLER in limit, I like being the bettor. If I flop 2nd pair in 1st position, I come out betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO

These must be the party fish message board. We should try to weasel some Account names to add to buddy list

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Marquis

11-04-2004, 11:37 AM

Some geniuses over there, eh?

Remind me never to go back.

TheHip41

11-04-2004, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I read a post there a few days ago discussing whether AK was a good starting hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, is it?

nyc999

11-04-2004, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I read a post there a few days ago discussing whether AK was a good starting hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the Cardplayer forums, the jury is still out

TheHip41

11-04-2004, 11:45 AM

Well yeah, AK can't even beat 22 right now, why would I raise? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

VBM

11-04-2004, 12:01 PM

lol!!

davelin

11-04-2004, 12:03 PM

I think half of these posters are 2+2ers trying to encourage the fish to play their way.

TheHip41

11-04-2004, 12:04 PM

From card player /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Some guy

Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 94
Location: North Jersey
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:30 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ak is trash

[/ QUOTE ]

I love this game

TheHip41

11-04-2004, 12:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think half of these posters are 2+2ers trying to encourage the fish to play their way.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a great idea. Let's all sign up on Card Player today. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Too devious

Jimbobobb

11-04-2004, 12:25 PM

That's awesome. Zulu what are you doing slumming? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

sexypanda

11-04-2004, 12:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I read a post there a few days ago discussing whether AK was a good starting hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently pocket jacks are the worst:

http://forums.cardplayer.com/viewtopic.php?t=2668

Thank god for the cardplayer forum, if I just read 2+2 I'd be making so many terrible mistakes.

btspider

11-04-2004, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently pocket jacks are the worst:

http://forums.cardplayer.com/viewtopic.php?t=2668

[/ QUOTE ]

i love the side debate over how TT is better than JJ because it can make more nut straights.

apparently TT is the nuts on a 9JQK board .. i learned something new!

TheHip41

11-04-2004, 01:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah pocket JJ's AND QQ's just stink... Specially if you play limit... I've been on the button a few times where i've had those hands and the pot has already been raised with 5 callers and i don't even want to call...

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO

Fold QQ on the button in a micro game, LOL

SuitedSixes

11-04-2004, 01:50 PM

I don't see what everyone is in an uproar about, they bring up some points that are very profitable . . . for me.

easypete

11-04-2004, 02:23 PM

My first post. Many more to come. (http://forums.cardplayer.com/viewtopic.php?p=33105#33105)

This makes me think.... Is it possible that some of the posters like bison, sthief, sfer, bakku are RPG or ITH posters that are giving bad advice here.... hmmmmmmm.....

Post #2 (http://forums.cardplayer.com/viewtopic.php?p=33108#33108)

Jaran

11-04-2004, 04:13 PM

You've been coaching at my tables again, haven't you, easy?

-Jaran

Qhorin

11-04-2004, 04:21 PM

My favorite:

"I even quit raising AA pre-flop... someone's going to draw
out on you."

Welcome to my buddies list.

Peter Harris

11-04-2004, 04:28 PM

Davelin came closest when he said

[ QUOTE ]
I think half of these posters are 2+2ers trying to encourage the fish to play their way.

[/ QUOTE ]

someone on the forum called browntrout said:

[ QUOTE ]
browntrout
Newbie
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 4

Yeah... raises in limit go almost unnoticed until you get to 5/10 or 10/20. Even then, some will call a raise preflop with garbage and make magic happen. I even quit raising AA pre-flop... someone's going to draw out on you.

I've heard the arguments. "Raise to eliminate players"... "Raise because you have the best hand".

But you must remember... you only have the best hand pre-flop... Once the flop hits... you are not going to have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can i just check...this is a double agent right? PM me if you don't want cardplayers to come out.

I'm worried someone *accidentally* picked a username that casts aspersions. I'm more hopeful this is someone with a particulary meeeean sense of humour!!

Regards,
Pete Harris

Jaran

11-04-2004, 04:40 PM

Read Easy's post, Peter.

-Jaran

zuluking

11-04-2004, 07:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's awesome. Zulu what are you doing slumming? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

cardplayer.com is the perfect site to look into the mind of a fish. I read that stuff all the time for some insight into what they are thinking. Its worth a once a week stop for 1/2 hour. Try it!

zuluking

11-04-2004, 07:13 PM

Genius. I'm signing up this weekend to do the same. You'll KNOW its me by the name. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

davelin

11-04-2004, 07:14 PM

I can't, I feel dumber just reading it.

easypete

11-04-2004, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to disagree with you on winning 80% of the time with AA. You will lose two out of three hands playing them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only in a 10 handed game with no one folding. I have been tracking these myself. Over 8K hands they have been a 92% winner with a total profit of $800. This includes trip aces getting sucked out by a gut shot str8 draw. That hand cost me ~$550.

Snad

[/ QUOTE ]

Got a question for you. I'm assuming you've played 8k hands... So, you've probably got AA about 36 times (just a guess). Out of those, you've won 33 of them (not bad)... So you average $24 win w/ AA... And yet one loss cost you $550... One more loss of that magnitude and AA is a big loser.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my favorite.

itsmesteve

11-04-2004, 07:37 PM

"These are just a few times that I can remember losing with pocket JJ, but I know there are plenty more times that I have lost <font color="red">these just stick in my head.</font>
.

Is there a good way to play pocket JJs or are they just a cursed hand."

Love it. I got sucked out playing pocket Jacks, Tens, and Kings about 5 times in 3 hours today. Guess I should cut them all out, as I conviently have forgotten all the hands I've won with them.

TommyTutone

11-04-2004, 08:59 PM

Y'all just got busted over there. I knew it was someone here based on the handle name, but I guess someone else had a big mouth (I'm looking at YOU Fishburger!)

Jord4n

11-05-2004, 03:10 AM

Wow, this is really sad. This post will probably not help me make any friends, but that doesn't really worry me. It may even make me look dumb. That's fine.

Let me start with some background. I'm 20 years old. I used to play video games a lot growing up. I guess I still am in that process, but anyways...I started playing online games. Games like Counter-Strike/Day of Defeat, etc. I'm sure most of you do not know what those games are, that is fine. Counter-Strike is one of the biggest multiplayer games on the market now. They have large tournaments with payouts into the thousands for teams. You're probably asking yourself, what is this kid saying? Well, perhaps this is pointless, but, seriously, posts like these are almost exactly the same as reading a nerdy internet gaming forum.

You do realize you just went onto another forum to do what? Essentially make fun and look down on fellow card players? Maybe I'm looking to far into this, but this seems very juvenile. I remember back in the day kid gamers doing the same type of thing, and to be honest, 2+2 at times has the exact feel of a big video game internet community: Immature, egotistical, arrogant.

I'm not saying that for everyone, as it normally is a minority, but seriously, this just kinda bugs me. Maybe it's cause I "put" up with this for the many years I played competitive video games (yes they are very competitive), but honestly, the maturity level is not much higher here. Perhaps there are some similarites between the life style of a gamer (it is a life style) and the life style of a card player.

This post just seems very pointless. I post at cardplayer sometimes, most of the guys there are nice, and yes, some of the things said are not so "smart". However, I don't see how that makes any of you "good" or "succesful" cardplayers and automatically can talk down, or bad about "them".

Perhaps I am looking into this too far, but keep this in mind.

All this reminds me of 13-20s year old kids and "adults" fighting over a stupid video game. I see many similar characteristics among all of the card playing internet communities I've visited. Perhaps some of that is due to the fact that this is an online world, and God knows that no one would do or say half the things they do online in the real world.

In closing: I hope you realize how much time you wasted doing whatever it is you "do" at the cardplayer site. It isn't funny, cute, original, any of that. It's just very childish, and further's my belief that many of the same characteristics in the gaming world, are in the card playing world. I'm not to sure that is a positive thing.

If you have any counter-arguments to what I bring up, I'd like to hear them. I've seen and heard about all there is in online "flames". My experience is all from stupid internet gaming forums, and I include myself in that. Again, much like the crap I see on 2+2/RGP from time to time...just not as frequently. Finally, this is not an attack on the majority, I hope it is just the minority.

- Jordan

Oh yes, please add me to your buddy lists and take my money.

Thanks.

edthayer

11-05-2004, 03:42 AM

Jord4n:

I don't think anyone here is "talking down" to the folks on cardplayer (at least not on their forum). The purpose of going to their forum to spread misinformation is for entertainment/profit purposes only. If you read browntrout's post on cardplayer, you notice he isn't condescending, he's simply feigning naiveity and spreading untruths. He's not being mean to anyone at cardplayer (he just looks like a moron to anyone who knows anything about holdem).

Anyway, that's my counter. BTW, I've played counter-strike... fun game.

bakku

11-05-2004, 05:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This makes me think.... Is it possible that some of the posters like bison, sthief, sfer, bakku are RPG or ITH posters that are giving bad advice here.... hmmmmmmm.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, people who post on those sites already give each other bad enough advice, it'd be pointless. However, I do give bad advice on these forums. Mostly on accident though.

Peter Harris

11-05-2004, 06:37 AM

i used to play counterstrike at home. but sucked ass against internet players. Now i'm playng a game with a nice reaction time.

I don't think anyone on the forum is out to directly insult people. I also don't believe there is more than a whiff of egotism, remember, we're microers, not $100,000/$200,000 limit players. I can take criticism from someone better than me.

If you want to learn poker theory surrounded by a bunch of people who can't tell their arse from their elbow, that's fine. I came to 2+2 because it has a respected heritage and a lot of good players frequently dispense lucid advice backed up with solid conversation. There aren't many forums that do that.

How many hands a day are posted on the cardplayer forums?
Of those, how many are replied to by people with the experience of people like sfer, nottom, bison, CDC, bakku and people who come here from SS and beyond to impart the knowledge they learned here? They don't make money out of this, hell, they lose it since we get better.

If you want second rate advice, you found a second rate forum. Perhaps when they click the 2+2 thread on their forums they'll see how much better the advice here is and will stay around.

Regards,
Pete Harris

easypete

11-05-2004, 09:20 AM

Jordan -

I was not, IMHO, "looking down" on other players. I am just aggreeing to sentiment that already exists in these threads, and being entertained while doing it. If you look at my responses out of the context of the thread, then yes, it may look bad. If you read the rest of the thread, you'll see that what I'm saying actually fits in the thread, agreeing with more than half the posters. I did not, once, nor would I have, introduced new misinformation in the thread.

I posted on 3 threads. Two of them were about AA. One poster that confronted me with rebutals to my posts had posted in the JJ thread the following two comments (before I posted):

[ QUOTE ]
yeah pocket JJ's AND QQ's just stink... Specially if you play limit... I've been on the button a few times where i've had those hands and the pot has already been raised with 5 callers and i don't even want to call...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

well the way i see it.. typically Jack + Jack = Jacked

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if you even pay attention to my posts on this forum, but they are not too different than those on cardplayer.

One thing I dislike, and it happens here frequently, is the one liners on a tough decision like "fold the flop". Why? I got in a huge debate with Something Clever about AJo preflop that, I believe, taught many players how better to play this hand (I know it helped me tremendously). This thread started out as a one liner "raise pf". My philosophy on this forum is pick a point and debate one side of it until I fully understand what I need to do. Sometimes, the side I pick is wrong, and I know it's wrong to begin with (or belive it may be wrong). The ensuing debate is what teaches, not my original post. This is what ended up happening at cardplayer.

This seems to work.

And actually, my posts on cardplayer, I believe triggered a debate (at least with the AA threads) that helped everyone reading those threads.

[ QUOTE ]
Got a question for you. I'm assuming you've played 8k hands... So, you've probably got AA about 36 times (just a guess). Out of those, you've won 33 of them (not bad)... So you average $24 win w/ AA... And yet one loss cost you $550... One more loss of that magnitude and AA is a big loser.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was nothing different than what I would have posted here, had I seen this post on 2+2.

So, even tho my intentions may not have been 100% honorable, they ended up being useful in the end. So, if I offended anybody, I do apologize.

And yes, you can add me to your buddy list (even the cardplayer forum players) and you are welcome to try to take all of my money.

maryfield48

11-05-2004, 10:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you read browntrout's post on cardplayer, you notice he isn't condescending, he's simply feigning naiveity and spreading untruths.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed (may I call you Ed?),

Read your words again. Would you be comfortable paraphrasing as "Lie like a motherf*****, just don't be condescending." It's a little disingenuous, it seems to me.

TheHip41

11-05-2004, 11:00 AM

Too funny

Keep on helping /images/graemlins/smile.gif

maryfield48

11-05-2004, 11:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Jordan -

I was not, IMHO, "looking down" on other players. I am just aggreeing to sentiment that already exists in these threads, and being entertained while doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I got a pretty clear sense of elitism coming from this thread on 2+2. May not have been the way you were thinking about it, but it was (and is) there.

[ QUOTE ]
If you look at my responses out of the context of the thread, then yes, it may look bad. If you read the rest of the thread, you'll see that what I'm saying actually fits in the thread, agreeing with more than half the posters. I did not, once, nor would I have, introduced new misinformation in the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooh, that sounds like a rationalization to me. I was just doing what everybody else was doing? I'd like to think 2+2ers might be classier than that. I don't think we have any obligation to proselytize the 'correct' way to play poker (in fact, I think it is counter-productive), but I do think that going onto another forum and saying things that we do not believe to be true is crossing into an area that I'm not comfortable with. This may be my hang-up, I admit.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if you even pay attention to my posts on this forum, but they are not too different than those on cardplayer.

One thing I dislike, and it happens here frequently, is the one liners on a tough decision like "fold the flop". Why? I got in a huge debate with Something Clever about AJo preflop that, I believe, taught many players how better to play this hand (I know it helped me tremendously). This thread started out as a one liner "raise pf". My philosophy on this forum is pick a point and debate one side of it until I fully understand what I need to do. Sometimes, the side I pick is wrong, and I know it's wrong to begin with (or belive it may be wrong). The ensuing debate is what teaches, not my original post. This is what ended up happening at cardplayer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it, I agree that it is plenty useful to be Devil's Advocate, and take an argument as far as it can be taken.

[ QUOTE ]
So, even tho my intentions may not have been 100% honorable, they ended up being useful in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds results-oriented, don't you think?

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I offended anybody, I do apologize.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. I'm not offended, just have a different PoV.

--
Peter

davelin

11-05-2004, 11:07 AM

Jord4n, I'll fully admit that I had a somewhat condescending attitude and read some of the threads on Cardplayer with a smirk and a shake of the head. It is really unfortunate because it probably wasn't very long where I was in that camp or at least in a somewhat similar mindset, we probably all were.

Let's just drop the whole Cardplayer thing. If they want to learn more and get better, they can come here. If they don't want to, oh well. Let's act with civility and integrity.

btspider

11-05-2004, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I got a pretty clear sense of elitism coming from this thread on 2+2. May not have been the way you were thinking about it, but it was (and is) there.

[/ QUOTE ]

some of that is just the way of the 2+2 community, which probably isn't on the other sites.. if someone here strongly supports a ridiculous idea and is told they are wrong but refuses to listen, they often get ridiculed in both mature and immature ways. it weeds out those who do not want to learn. posts just like easy's appear here all the time, the only difference is they come from a regular who everyone knows is joking and trying to emphasize a point by exaggerating the ridiculousness of the other side of the argument.

Iron Tigran

11-05-2004, 11:37 AM

Intentionally lying to people, even if it only reinforces their existing misconceptions, is certainly unethical, and to me also is immoral. No one is obliged to educate weaker players, of course. I recall Negreanu saying he saw a player make a terrible play in a game, and after the hand, the player asked if Negreanu would have done the same. Negreanu said simply, "I wasn't really paying attention." No need to say, "Oh yes, do that every time!"

As for assuming 2+2ers are all classy, I need only recall the fury some had over being denied a chance to improperly snag a bonus not meant for them in the first place... But that is the minority of folks here, certainly!

btspider

11-05-2004, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Intentionally lying to people, even if it only reinforces their existing misconceptions, is certainly unethical, and to me also is immoral.

[/ QUOTE ]

so exaggerating is unethical now? (exaggeration intended)
is bluffing unethical? (ditto)

[ QUOTE ]
As for assuming 2+2ers are all classy

[/ QUOTE ]

who said that? i don't believe it.

i think there has been a disproportionate response to this whole situation. a simple, that was pointless. please stop, suffices. moral outrage over a few posts leaves very little room to escalate when a true moral crime is committed.

Jord4n

11-05-2004, 01:57 PM

That's fine. And again, my goal was not in trying to attack the character of any individuals here, I more or less just felt like something should be said, and I felt like I had a decent grasp on the situation.

I understand how it probably was just in fun or whatever, but I still don't think it's entirely appropriate. Not saying I don't enjoy a good joke, I have a good sense of humor and joke around a lot...but when there's a whole different thread on a seperate forum about the "noobie" players at cardplayer, it just kinda bugged me. Funny thing about it is many times the "elite" players of the gaming world (god this sounds so nerdy lol) would go to the "noobie" forums and basically do the same kinda thing. Make jokes, talk down, etc.

I wasn't trying to start a big debate, as in context, this also isn't that big of a deal...but I just kinda felt like I was sitting back in my house reading a bunch of posts from some 16 year computer nerd being an "e-thug" as I like to call them.

Anywho...that's all...good luck.

- Jordan

Jord4n

11-05-2004, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i used to play counterstrike at home. but sucked ass against internet players. Now i'm playng a game with a nice reaction time.

I don't think anyone on the forum is out to directly insult people. I also don't believe there is more than a whiff of egotism, remember, we're microers, not $100,000/$200,000 limit players. I can take criticism from someone better than me.

If you want to learn poker theory surrounded by a bunch of people who can't tell their arse from their elbow, that's fine. I came to 2+2 because it has a respected heritage and a lot of good players frequently dispense lucid advice backed up with solid conversation. There aren't many forums that do that.

How many hands a day are posted on the cardplayer forums?
Of those, how many are replied to by people with the experience of people like sfer, nottom, bison, CDC, bakku and people who come here from SS and beyond to impart the knowledge they learned here? They don't make money out of this, hell, they lose it since we get better.

If you want second rate advice, you found a second rate forum. Perhaps when they click the 2+2 thread on their forums they'll see how much better the advice here is and will stay around.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I think they probably would join this forum. However, some of the posters I think were turned off due to the post and "prior" attitude of the original poster. I know he continued posting there and some sort of discussion came from it...that's fine. But I don't think many Card player forum goers will come to 2+2 just to be rediculed when they announce they also are part of the card player forum. Again, I still think this is the minority though..

Bleh...yea, I used to suck at counterstrike...till I started playing every day all the time. Just like anything..have a little natural ability, put in time and effort and you get better. Only thing that kinda sucks about it is realizing it is infact just a game and the majority of the people that play the game will never amount to anything through it. The "professional" gamers are probably on the same level as "professional" cardplayers. The succesful ones are very rare. It's funny to think of now, but had I not burnt out on the game I wouldn't doubt myself attending the big tournaments trying to win big. I never reached that level playing counter-strike...to put it in terms I played the game at a "semi-pro" level...but I did play the game Day of Defeat at what would be considered the "pro level". Fortunately, or unfortunatley...not really sure how to look at it...the game wasn't big enough at the time to be in the main tournament..but they still had land based tournies throughout the US/Europe..but the majority were online, and not for money. Counter-Stike on the other spectrum had both. Tons of online play/tournaments, and tons of land based tournaments in both Europe and US. I fell out of the whole scene more or less my freshman year of college so I didn't really pay attention to the tournies this summer...
heres a link for anyone interested and nothing better to do while browsing: http://www.thecpl.com/events/?p=2004events

- Jordan

- Jordan

Jord4n

11-05-2004, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jord4n, I'll fully admit that I had a somewhat condescending attitude and read some of the threads on Cardplayer with a smirk and a shake of the head. It is really unfortunate because it probably wasn't very long where I was in that camp or at least in a somewhat similar mindset, we probably all were.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree and that's a big reason why I think most people shouldn't have the "condescending" attitude as you said, cause most were all at the same point.

I really didn't want to make a big debate, so I'm fine with "dropping" it. My only reason in posting was to kinda bring to light how pointless it really is and well...bleh...that's all...later.

- Jordan

10-7 offsuit

11-05-2004, 02:18 PM

You are right about me posting those.. But you are taking these comments completely out of context...

I believe someone made a comment on my first post about JJ's and QQ's stating, that i was talking about "microlimits" and laughed. I play only 8-16 limit, and if that's a "microlimit" to y'all than i guess what i post next is just pointless.

Why did i post this? Simple.. If you read my other posts you would understand... QQ's for me have just played very poorly.. I am a fairly tight aggressive player. (a 7-8 according to Schoonmaker), and am now 2-15 with QQ's in various positions. Do i play them aggressively? Of course i do, especially in early position, but in late position in certain situations like this one, i know that my QQ's will have a tough time standing up..

Now onto my apparantly "idiotic" comment.. In limit if i am on the button UTG raises, and 4 more people cold call the raise and i'm on the button, what is raising going to do at this point? #1 i'm on the button... do button raises ever get any credence?(typically not)I already know the other 5 players will call my reraise and more than likely the pot will be capped... Now knowing most players in the SB and BB, if there is that much action, many players call (whether because of correct pot odds now or just because many players love action pots) So now i have up to 7 other callers in a pot with pocket QQ's... Since u all are 2+2 readers... The value of high pocket pairs go where when more people are in a pot? Up or down? So basically i am dumb for not wanting to put $16 more into a pot that is more than likely going to be 8-handed? The pot is now so big, any 3 flush, 3 straight, bottom pair, or overcard is getting more than sufficient odds to draw on me. If capped the pot will have $256 or 16 big bets already... This ain't NL where i can push people out.. If you disagree with what i posted, well please enlighten me. I've read many of Malmuth's and Skalansky's books and have been playing for over 9 years, so please don't say, "newb", or somthing immature.. If i'm totally off base, well let me know..

Now the J+J=Jacked comment.. Well maybe i would like JJ's better if i played NL... If i don't hit a set with them, and there are overcards they can be tough to play.. and if there are no overcards, typically that means a straight draw is laying around.

Heads up, NL, and in short games i love these hands... But my comment was not about these games.

EDIT - for crying out loud, my comments were being mocked on the "microlimit" section... sheesh.. too funny... i'm not even irritated anymore... Microlimit players can mock my play anyday. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

kt421

11-05-2004, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Intentionally lying to people, even if it only reinforces their existing misconceptions, is certainly unethical, and to me also is immoral. No one is obliged to educate weaker players, of course. I recall Negreanu saying he saw a player make a terrible play in a game, and after the hand, the player asked if Negreanu would have done the same. Negreanu said simply, "I wasn't really paying attention." No need to say, "Oh yes, do that every time!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be nitpicky because I certainly agree with you sentiment (lying isn't good) but how is what Dan N did anything but intentionally lying? He saw the hand, saw the play, was paying attention enough to recall it for discussion later...and said he wasn't paying attention. It is a step better than saying "you played it perfectly" but a lie nonetheless. The way to not lie is to say "I'd rather not comment" or "it was a terrible play."

btspider

11-05-2004, 02:24 PM

welcome.

You want to see this capped preflop. You don't 3-bet QQ here to fold anyone. You 3-bet to make the mistake they already made PF (cold-calling with JTo or whatever crap they cc with) even more of a mistake. poker is a zero-sum game (sans rake). when they makes mistakes, you make $$.

Against 5 other opponents, QQ will win FAR more than its fair share. Its the same concept as pumping a flush draw on the flop. You only have to win this pot 1 in 5 times (putting in 1/6th of the bets) to make the preflop 3-bet worth it.

win money, not pots.

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT - for crying out loud, my comments were being mocked on the "microlimit" section... sheesh.. too funny... i'm not even irritated anymore... Microlimit players can mock my play anyday.

[/ QUOTE ]

please. a name is a name only. if you wish to discuss a hand seriously.. stick around. most of the posters you have dealt with don't play micro stakes, but offer their time to the newer posters on this forum. 8/16 B&M probably plays like a party 1/2 game anyway.

10-7 offsuit

11-05-2004, 02:36 PM

That is also assuming that you have the best hand as well... AK vs QQ is a coinflip(heads up), and 2 of my losses (of the 13) have actually been to KK and AA... Maybe i'm just a little gun shy, but i don't want to play 8-handed capped with QQ's if i can prevent it.

But what you are saying does go with Skalansky's (shoot forgot what he calls it), theorem of poker...

DMBFan23

11-05-2004, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since u all are 2+2 readers... The value of high pocket pairs go where when more people are in a pot? Up or down?

[/ QUOTE ]

the value of high pocket pairs goes WAYYYYYYYY up, I just win the pot less often. this isnt contradictory, see why?

zephed56

11-05-2004, 02:54 PM

btspider

11-05-2004, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That is also assuming that you have the best hand as well... AK vs QQ is a coinflip(heads up), and 2 of my losses (of the 13) have actually been to KK and AA... Maybe i'm just a little gun shy, but i don't want to play 8-handed capped with QQ's if i can prevent it.

[/ QUOTE ]

its all taken into account by the term "pot equity".

heads-up domination concerns are not too much of an issue. KQs is a fine holding on the button here even if the UTG raiser has AK. KQo is poor since it has one less way to win of the big 3 ways: big card value (dominated here), straight potential, flush potential. KQo's straight potential is not enough to warrant the PF cold-call, but i digress.

while being against AA/KK is troublesome.. these hands shouldn't be feared just yet. you could just as easily have his AQ or KQ dominated.

edthayer

11-05-2004, 03:51 PM

Sure, Mary (may I call you that?), you can call me Ed.

I guess it is disingenuious, however, I don't have any moral qualms about it. It's no different that telling a fish that sucks out on the river with his 53o "Nice hand, way to hang in there!" You're being deceptive with this kind of comment, by encouraging incorrect play. So what?

Poker is a game of deception, and this is just part of playing the game away from the table.

Ed.

davelin

11-05-2004, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, Mary (may I call you that?), you can call me Ed.

I guess it is disingenuious, however, I don't have any moral qualms about it. It's no different that telling a fish that sucks out on the river with his 53o "Nice hand, way to hang in there!" You're being deceptive with this kind of comment, by encouraging incorrect play. So what?

Poker is a game of deception, and this is just part of playing the game away from the table.

Ed.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a pretty big difference.

edthayer

11-05-2004, 04:06 PM

Perhaps I'm just morally bankrupt, but would you mind telling me how?

davelin

11-05-2004, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I'm just morally bankrupt, but would you mind telling me how?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, there just seems to be a big difference between telling a player online "nh" after their 35o caught runner runner versus hearing about a forum where the posters aren't as good, creating a username under said forums, spreading mis-information purposely and then telling others so everyone can get a laugh out of it. But I can't prove it so if you think it's the same, oh well.

edthayer

11-05-2004, 04:24 PM

I can see where you're coming from, Dave. You are uncomfortable with the concept of being deceptive outside of the actual gameplay. The way I see it, poker is only a game. Games are about winning, and winning (in poker) requires deception.

If you are willing to be deceptive during the game, you are no different than someone who is deceptive talking about the game away from the table, and I see nothing wrong with either. It all serves the ultimate end of winning the most chips. I don't believe that the ends justify the means, except in games-- because, c'mon, they're only games!

davelin

11-05-2004, 04:33 PM

Sure poker is a game of deception but I think there's a big difference between deception on the field of play and outside of it. Just because of the deceptive nature of poker, I don't think that allows any form of deception acceptable.

10-7 offsuit

11-05-2004, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Then what exactly do you want to play with 8 handed capped?
Certainly QQ is better than a small broadway, which many of your opponents probably have. Most of them probably are dominated by each other also.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm... that is a good point... I guess i just don't like capped pots pre flop 8-handed /images/graemlins/laugh.gif That's why i stopped playing low limits.

edthayer

11-05-2004, 04:37 PM

Capped flops 8-handed make my nipples hard.

jluker7

11-05-2004, 05:28 PM

yea... sometimes i get a tent in my pants if its capped 6 way.

DMBFan23

11-05-2004, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Capped flops 8-handed make my nipples hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is awesome. bump.

the_rookie

11-05-2004, 07:51 PM

lol, I thought cardplayer readers were better than this...

[ QUOTE ]
I even quit raising AA pre-flop... someone's going to draw out on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Iron Tigran

11-05-2004, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Intentionally lying to people, even if it only reinforces their existing misconceptions, is certainly unethical, and to me also is immoral. No one is obliged to educate weaker players, of course. I recall Negreanu saying he saw a player make a terrible play in a game, and after the hand, the player asked if Negreanu would have done the same. Negreanu said simply, "I wasn't really paying attention." No need to say, "Oh yes, do that every time!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be nitpicky because I certainly agree with you sentiment (lying isn't good) but how is what Dan N did anything but intentionally lying? He saw the hand, saw the play, was paying attention enough to recall it for discussion later...and said he wasn't paying attention. It is a step better than saying "you played it perfectly" but a lie nonetheless. The way to not lie is to say "I'd rather not comment" or "it was a terrible play."

[/ QUOTE ]

You and btspider busted me. I was not nearly clear enough. My self-righteous indignation prevented me from taking a bit more time to say what I meant as clearly as intended. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

The way this deception was perpetrated is the main thing I have a problem with. Posting incorrect advice intentionally on a posting board where folks are trying to gain a better understanding is what irks me.

In the heat of actual battle on the felt, yes, lying is fine, as it is part of the game. Bluff all day and night! Tell the guy "good laydown" when you check-raised with nothing. etc. etc. etc. That's certainly part of the game, and fun, too. The difference is, you expect deception at the table. On a board where folks discuss, you hope the info is legit, or if wrong, at least honestly wrong, out of ignorance rather than malice.

I guess as a not-so-great player, it also was a bit personal to me. Of course, caveat emptor, right? Cross reference/check advice from folks online with books/good players you know, etc.

All in all, I am not trying to make a federal case out of it. I hope I didn't/don't come across as a hysteric on this thread. In the big picture, it's not really a major issue. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif