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View Full Version : Betting impetus and postflop play


Irieguy
11-04-2004, 03:06 AM
Just some thoughts to potentially start a discussion:

Postflop play is a neglected skill in SNG poker. Mostly because you can beat the games without having any postflop skill at all. But improving your postflop play can really make an impact on the chip stack you take into level 4 and higher. (from then on, any postflop andvantage you may have is negligible)

One concept that seems to be missing (to me, anyways) from a lot of posts about playing out of position is what my poker buds and I call "betting impetus." Betting impetus is what you gain when you bet to show strength and still have enough chips left to play after the flop. Here's an example:

UTG limps and it's passed around to the SB, who calls, and the BB who checks. Flop comes:

K-K-2

SB checks and the BB overbets the pot all-in. You are UTG with 9-9... what to you do? A call here is going to be clearly +EV. You might not be happy about putting all of your chips in, but with the action it seems pretty clear that you have the best hand.

Contrast that to what happens if the BB had raised to 4xBB preflop. UTG now is getting less than 2:1 on a call unless the SB also calls. This is a bad call that most players will make. SB folds. Flop comes:

K-K-2

BB overbets the pot all-in. Now how do you feel about your pocket 9's? This is not going to be a +EV call. In fact, you're in a world of hurt wondering how you got into such a spot.

The point of this post is not to discuss that hypothetical hand, but to illustrate how betting impetus can drastically change how an opponent feels about your interest in a pot. Postflop play is significantly influenced by how the pot is played preflop. The set-up matters.

A funny, but frequent example of a complete lack of understanding of this concept might go something like this:

UTG limps, button limps, SB limps, BB limps. Flop comes:

K-K-2

SB bets the min., BB calls, UTG calls, button min-raises... SB folds.... then BB goes all-in. You've all seen this; button insta-calls with his king and the BB shows A-2. The mistake here is that bad players often decide from completely out of the blue that it's time to make a play at a pot. They completely disregard the fact that they've shown no strength at all up to that point, but expect their opponents to somehow lay down their hands just because they went all-in.

It seems to me that the biggest concern most people have after the flop is a trap. "how can I trap this guy," or "I wonder if I'm getting trapped." Remember that in order for a trap to occur, somebody has to have a big hand and somebody else has to put chips into the pot. This doesn't happen all that often... most pots can be played for when the blinds are small.

Anyways, I'm interested to hear what you all have to say about how your potential postflop options influence your preflop decisions.

Irieguy

Unarmed
11-04-2004, 11:32 AM
I'll throw in a couple points from personal experience at the $5 and $10 levels. Back when I started at the 5s I would typically auto-pot any flop I had raised with PF against less than 3 opponents. Generally I feel this is a decent play against *reasonable* opponents, but it definitely wasn't helping my game at the $5s. Reason being:

These jokers will call with any piece of the flop meaning with 2 opponents the odds of me getting called on my semi-bluff is 56%. This considers only all "made" hands, we're probably looking at closer to 65% given draws.

Depending on how strong my draw is betting can clearly be +EV even given a 65% chance of being called, but for the last several months I've just started playing extremely passive on the flop, check-calling when pot odds + a *small* bump for implied odds justifies the call and check folding when I'm not getting odds.

This is completely opposite to how I would play against decent opposition, but the fact is, even with a t400 pot on the flop, the standard bet at level 1 for many of these jokers is t20. So even with just two overs they're giving me odds to call in most cases.

I'd like to see what people think of playing this weakly. Its definintely helped my ROI but we're talking about only 3 months here and around 100 SNGs. Keep in mind this is only my style early on, once its down to 5 handed I change gears dramatically and get hyper aggressive.

So to address Irie's post (sort of) my post flop decisions are currently completely independent of my pre-flop action. I will begin allowing one to influence the other at the exact point my opponents are paying enough attention to actually remember what the PF action was. Perhaps this inflection point happens at the 20s, 30s, 50s...I'm sure I'll find out when I get there.

barry111
11-04-2004, 02:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
UTG limps and it's passed around to the SB, who calls, and the BB who checks. Flop comes:

K-K-2

SB checks and the BB overbets the pot all-in. You are UTG with 9-9... what to you do? A call here is going to be clearly +EV. You might not be happy about putting all of your chips in, but with the action it seems pretty clear that you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont understand how it seems pretty clear you have the best hand, I would put the all-in on a weak K which would beat my 2 pair. Can you explain this a little furether I would like to understand your point.

Thanks

rjb03
11-04-2004, 02:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG limps and it's passed around to the SB, who calls, and the BB who checks. Flop comes:

K-K-2

SB checks and the BB overbets the pot all-in. You are UTG with 9-9... what to you do? A call here is going to be clearly +EV. You might not be happy about putting all of your chips in, but with the action it seems pretty clear that you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont understand how it seems pretty clear you have the best hand, I would put the all-in on a weak K which would beat my 2 pair. Can you explain this a little furether I would like to understand your point.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the poster is implying that the BB does not want you to call. Otherwise, he would not go all in out of nowhere with not much in the pot. You would probably expect a check-raise or a lead out bet/check-raise on the turn.

etgryphon
11-04-2004, 02:34 PM
Ham,

I think the fact that BB got a free ride is the key here...

Unless is the BB is a *really good* player and knows that it looks wrong to overbet the pot like this, I think one can assume that 99 are maybe good...

Still that being said, I never feel comfortable calling here unless I have a K there are just better spots to choose when you have control. Everyone probably knows that the guys is making a play, but i have to give him credit for the balls to make the move.

-Gryph

Irieguy
11-04-2004, 02:36 PM
The mathematical explanation is that the range of hands a player would limp with from the BB, and then go all-in with that flop is very wide. Most of the hands in that wide range do not beat 9-9. Also, if a player flops huge and the pot is small, they will usually try to trap so the all-in play is not a typical way to play flopped trips.

Contrasted to a player who raised preflop, and then goes all-in: his range of hands definitely includes AK and big pairs as a large percentage of possibilities. So you are likely to be way behind. Also, his push makes more sense now that the pot is worth taking.

Irieguy

barry111
11-04-2004, 02:57 PM
ok so one followup question, If you were the 'all-in' guy how would you play a weak K. IE (K + 3-10) with that particular flop?

Thanks

etgryphon
11-04-2004, 03:43 PM
Depends on your table image and your opponents...

If you have a tight table image... id check and hope someone will bet at the pot from late position and then i'd pop them back for a raise. If it is check around, no problem, just hope that the turn hits someone (hopefully without a letting someone get a set)

If you have an aggressive table image or your opponents don't pay much attention then a min raise to induce a reraise maybe in order. If it comes back to you push to end it. But i wouldn't call an all-in w/out a kicker greater than a 7.

Comments?

-Gryph