silly 7 card stud question

I am dealt QQ(8). Both other Queens are out. One of the Queens raise. One other caller. I called.


I rarely play 7-card but after I made the call it seems like this is an obvious fold. I may have a better hand at this point but I will have a hard time making better 2 pair.


Ken Poklitar

ohKanada@hotmail.com

Calling is probably the worst play here. Folding is not bad either. But if the situation is right this could be a reraising situation. This would be where no cards higher than a Q are out after you, there is a good chance you can get it heads up and your opponent will raise with threestraight and flushes that contain a high card. Otherwise folding is the best option, and if the raiser is a strong player folding is also the best option.


Pat

It seems like an obvious reraise (of course there are always exceptions). Pump it up!

raise or fold..gl

You forget to add important notes such as:


1- Are there other bigger cards behind you? (KIng or an Ace exposed?)


2- Is this game structured with an ante and if so, how high is it?


3- KNowing the previous action, Is that player (rasing with a Queen) attempting to steal the antes and the bring-in bet?


4- Do you think you have the best hand on 3rd?


5- How many suited cards related to the suit of the raising Queen do you see on the boards?


Your Queens are dead but you have a pretty starting hand on 3rd. YOur fear is to play vs a bigger hidden pair and if this is the case you are a super super super underdog.

In that point and thinking you do not face AA or KK in the opponent hole cards go ahead and reraise, if you got reraised, abandon the pot (your only option is to catch an 8 on 4th, hoping your opponent fear you have three 8s).


QQ-8 with queens out is a 3rd street winner, and not a hand you want to be committed all the way.


Marco

(I lost a lot of times with that silly:) hand, playing the opposite I wrote above.

Thanks to all for the responses.


Actually this was in the 2nd round of a tourney but the question was more of a basic stud question rather then tourney strategy so I posted it here.


1) There was only 1 bigger card and he folded before my action.


2) 2nd round of tourney. Antes cheap compared to chips at this point.


3) Hard to say since it was so early in the tourney. I don't believe he had raised yet. He was in early position but there was 1 high card after him plus the other Q.


4) Like I said in my original post it was possible that I did.


5) Not sure.


Ken Poklitar

ohKanada@hotmail.com

One thing for sure. If you do fold, since your hand is so dead and an eight kicker isn't so hot, especially if it's not suited, you can't be costing yourself very much.

Hello,Ken,

If the "Q" that raised is a tight player---doesn't play many 3rd st. hands, FOLD--your kicker is too small. If the "Q" is a loose player,playing many 3rd St. hands,raise to go heads up with the other "Q" Sitting Bull

Hello,Ken,

Early tournament play requires tighter play--Fold in this case--it doesn't matter how loose your opponent is--in a live game ,you would re-raise a loose opponent.


Sitting Bull

gr8 answer,by the way there is a very good discussion of this situation in the green book...7cs for adv,players..get that book and work with it..it's all there...gl

Call might actually be right if if your eight is suited to one of your queens and that suit is extremely alive (you would also need to have a good read on your opponents and a favorable ante/betting structure). But contrary to what some other people have suggested, reraise is probably not right, not in these circumstances anyway.


The short version is that the bulk of your profit from hidden pairs comes from when they secretly make trips and your opponents don't get a read on it. You don't make much if any profit with these hands when you make two pair, because your second pair is in the open. Versus an open pair, all but your dumbest or most deranged opponents will play pretty close to correctly. You will win a lot of pots, but over the long haul you won't show much if any profit, unless your opponents are idiots. See TTOP for details.


The value your queens have is as "emergency outs" should your other plans for this hand fall through. That is, they will hold up to win some pots and thereby cut your losses and reduce your risk on the hand. In this indirect way they contribute to your OVERALL profits, because a bet saved is a bet earned. But in this respect, you would make a bigger contribution to your overall profits by just not playing this hand at all.


Making a profit from a hand like this will require convincing your opponents that your 8 is something more than an 8. Depending on what you catch on 4th and 5th, you might be able to persuade your opponents that you've made trip eights or a flush, and if they've been catching bricks they may give up. This is so hard to do, however, that the queens are probably not sufficient fallback. You need a suited 8 for extra protection. I'm not persuaded it's enough, but if you have a good read on your opponents you might get away with it.


This brings up another reason to just call: it will make future plays based on your 8 look more convincing. This is especially true if you catch a card of the same suit as your eight. If you reraise, however, the opponents are going to have a hard time believing you started with a three flush. Also, if you smooth call, then catch an 8, they are more likely to assume that you started with (8x)8 because most people wouldn't reraise with just a pair of eights. If you reraise, they may put you on (BB)8 where B is some Big Card, and it will be harder for you to get aces or kings to fold out.


Finally, when you're depending on scary cards to win the day, you improve your chances if you don't make the pot so big that it's automatic for your opponents to call on 4th or 5th with hands they would fold if the pot were smaller.


TRLS