poker journal - 9

[theBruiser500]

Hello Texas Hold'em General forum! For the past year or two with many long breaks in that period I have focussed on NLHE (that is where poker journal entries 1-9 are). Now though I'm switching to limit hold'em, because I'm told there is more money here, for variety, because I like the idea of being a "well rounded player," for game selection, for flexibility if NL games dry up in the future (I always hear that NL takes a fishes money quicker than limit).

My journal entries in the NL forum were very helpful. I thought about what was going on with my game and I got responses that were helpful. This isn't really about specific hands, I'll be posting those in the HU and shorthnaded forum and mid, high-stakes when I get to that level. My goals... 1) Make money 2) Get better. When I was playing NLHE my main goal was to get better and then make money, since then my passion for the game has dulled a bit. This won't have much practical differences though because I still put huge priority on improving my game (I believe 10 hours spent studying the game now which increases my per hour winrate by $10 an hour will be more than made up for in the long run). The only thing I can think of that will change is before I played in games with better players than me just for the experience in challenge, I'm not too interested in doing that right now.

So my main goal is making money. A little background - I'm 19 and go to UMass Amherst though I'm not going to classes right now and won't be going to school next semester. I'm not sure what will happen with college for me in the future so I think it would be great for flexibility for me if I could put as much money into the bank now as I can. BTW, regarding college I normally like and welcome advice on what I should do but don't feel like it now, and besides that, I'm pretty much not going to school here next semester no matter what so comments on this are pointless right now.

I've been playing 5 hours a day or so the last few days. This is a lot for me, after just playing a couple of hours it feels like I've been playing for many hours. One of my biggest problems is just keeping my eyes focused on the screen so I can see the action. It may be a good idea for me to take a 5 minute break every hour just to rest my eyes. I have plenty bankroll to invest in this from my NLHE play. I've been playing 4 tables of 5/10 6 max limit and have already experienced my first 250 BB downswing /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I think I need to tighten up to decrease variance, and also just until I know how to play the game better. I'm completley lost in many limit situations but working hard to get a grasp on them by asking friends and posting in the HU and SH forum. Here are a couple of questions...

I am rereading Ed Miller's SSHE book now, is it worth it to read slansky's hold'em for advanced players, supersystems limit section, and ciaffone's limit book or would the time be better spent just playing and reading/posting on the forums?

Also, partypokre doesn't seem to email hand histories anymore, and the hand histories are scattered in that partypoker/handhistory folder on my computer now, how do I import them into pokertracker?

thanks,
danny

ps. you may have noticed, i didn't proof read this, please forgive that it takes a lot of time to post, and proof reading takes even more time

ps.s. i hear many people make $225-$280 an hour playing limit he, that's what i want to make too. i want to get to at least 15/30 and hopefully 30/60 and beyond. over the next couple years i'd like to put at least 100k or 200k in the bank.

[fsuplayer]

good luck with the switch.

you prob. already know this, but you will get more responses to this type of thing in the HUSH forum.


as for importing PT hands, click the lightening bolt, then click the look for a file on my PC.

then the "all text files....."

then click configure.

find the HH folder for empire.


should be ready to go then.

gl bud


fsuplayer

[theBruiser500]

thanks!

[jrobb83]

I would most definately read Holdem for Advanced Players in addition to Small Stakes. It is still a great resource for the limit holdem player. You ought to be able to figure out what not might apply to games mostly made up of player who have little concept of correct strategy. But if you are new to limit and not reading this book, you are doing yourself a serious disservice.

Another reccomendation is to read and reread Theory or Poker at least a few times, if you haven't already. It was written with a mostly limit mindset, so you may not have read it. It is an excellent work about the logic behind correct poker strategy.

The limit advice in Supersystem is out-dated due to the fact is was written when the blind structure was different.

I have not read Ciaffone's book, but have heard he tends towards weak-tightness.

Here are Mason's book reviews (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=450677&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1) so that you can research any more limit books you may be interested in.

[Sponger15SB]

bruiser i've always admired your honesty, maturity, and humble approach to the game.

good luck to you.

also, whats up with you and not going to school?

[astroglide]

read SSH and the ciaffone/brier book (weak/tight but good study on thinking). don't worry about hpfap/ss/etc in terms of materially improving your game.

[jimymat]

I always look for your posts and responses. Lot of respect for your context.
Hold em Poker for advanced playes is a must have. Also check out Tournament Poker for advanced players. Lots of excellent advice that rolls over to ring games. Well worth the money. Good luck.

[theBruiser500]

I've already read theory of poker.

Thanks sponge. And thanks matty. I just don't care about school, too lazy to go to classes, don't like having that fixed schedule. I'm already on academic probation from last year, and I'm gonna fail some stuff this year so they'll kick me out for another semester at which point I can reevalutate again. That is the situation and there is nothing that can be done about it at this point anyway so no point in debating whether I should focus more on college now.

[MEbenhoe]

Is there a way to import the hands on party skins immediately as they are written and thus update stats on players on the spot? Any explanation in how to do this would be appreciated.

[Dan Mezick]

nice post, one comment.

$500 an hour is $1M a year. The $225 to $280 per hour you quoted is around $500K a year fulltime.

I know very few people who have any chance of making this level of income, at any job/profession/etc, period.

I think a rethinking of poker potential, specifically in limit, may be in order.

You might consider dumbing it down to say, $80 per hour as an upper limit goal.

With 1768 hours in a fulltime year, $80 per hour buys you a pretty good lunch.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing 4 tables of 5/10 6 max limit and have already experienced my first 250 BB downswing .

[/ QUOTE ]

Danny--quad tabling 6max is about the worst thing I can think for you to do while you try to pick up the ins and outs of limit play.

When I switched from NL to limit and then to 6max, the hands came at me way too fast at 6max for me to 4 table and learn anything. Quad tabling is something to do when you have enough experience that you can make plays in marginal situations without having to think hard about them.

scrub

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks sponge. And thanks matty. I just don't care about school, too lazy to go to classes, don't like having that fixed schedule. I'm already on academic probation from last year, and I'm gonna fail some stuff this year so they'll kick me out for another semester at which point I can reevalutate again. That is the situation and there is nothing that can be done about it at this point anyway so no point in debating whether I should focus more on college now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bullshit. There is a very good chance that you will soon regret taking such a cavalier attitude toward your education.

[scrub]

Also, Nate is right. And it's not close.

scrub

[theBruiser500]

I'm not sure I understnad your point dan mezick, are you just saying I should be content if all I earn is $80 an hour?

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
ps.s. i hear many people make $225-$280 an hour playing limit he, that's what i want to make too. i want to get to at least 15/30 and hopefully 30/60 and beyond. over the next couple years i'd like to put at least 100k or 200k in the bank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

Bruiser, if you have an option to finish off your education do so.

[bicyclekick]

I guess I don't know you that well, but if you're as up front and honest as everyone says, you'll like people who are up front and honest.

You did not have a -250bb swing, you had a -250bb loss. I know the temptation is there to jump into 5/10 because you want to make and are used to making some substantial money, but this is quite silly, especially at 4 tables.

Don't set the bar too high too quickly, you're likely to fall on your face.

[theBruiser500]

Heh, Bicyclekick, I know /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I was just joking around when I chose the word "swing". I'm probably going to pull it back to 3 tables with one of them being a ring game and tighten up considerably.

[Richie Rich]

Realistically, how many BBs do you expect to earn per 100 hands?

[theBruiser500]

I don't know, IMO that's a silly question to ask. I'm going to try and make as many BBs/100 handss as I can.

[cornell2005]

bruiser will make alot more than 80 an hour in probably less than a month of starting limit. he is switching over to limit because there is more money there than in nl, and he was beating the 5/10 nl stars game for a couple of months. hell, he could make 80 and hour playing half nl50 half nl100.

[ML4L]

Hey Bruiser,

Out of curiosity, exactly how much were you winning at NL? PM me if you would like.

The reason that I say this is because I think, with less practice than it's going to take to turn you into a limit machine, you could make a lot of money at NL. It probably won't be GoT/Jay/ZeeJustin bucks, but I think you should be able to make in excess of $150/hr playing NL.

Again, PM me if you want to talk about it.

Good luck.

ML4L

[Richie Rich]

Bruiser- of course you're going to try to make as many BB/hr as you can. Duh. But at what stakes do you plan to run over the tables? My point is, even the best 15/30 or 30/60 limit players grind it out to make about 2BB/hr over the long haul. How do you expect to make more than $250/hr playing anything below 100/200?

[fsuplayer]

How do you expect to make more than $250/hr playing anything below 100/200?

you could make over $250/hr by playing 6 tables of 10/20 6 max if you averaged about 2.3BB/100, which is very doable.

8 tabling 15/30 would net you well more than that.

[fsuplayer]

but I think you should be able to make in excess of $150/hr playing NL.

I have no doubt that you could, but IMO its much easier/quicker to learn to do this in limit.

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
but I think you should be able to make in excess of $150/hr playing NL.

I have no doubt that you could, but IMO its much easier/quicker to learn to do this in limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, maybe I need to switch back to limit... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
Bruiser- of course you're going to try to make as many BB/hr as you can. Duh. But at what stakes do you plan to run over the tables? My point is, even the best 15/30 or 30/60 limit players grind it out to make about 2BB/hr over the long haul.

[/ QUOTE ]

We make 2bb/hour/table. Something i've been telling you for a long time.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Bruiser- of course you're going to try to make as many BB/hr as you can. Duh. But at what stakes do you plan to run over the tables? My point is, even the best 15/30 or 30/60 limit players grind it out to make about 2BB/hr over the long haul. How do you expect to make more than $250/hr playing anything below 100/200?

[/ QUOTE ]

He'll play more than one table.

>$200/hr is very doable at 10/20 playing 4 tables.

Higher limits and more tables than that = more money.

[Ulysses]

FWIW, ML, 4-tabling 5/10 6-max LHE is a very low-stress way to make $100-$150/hr for an expert player. The biggest downswing one would likely see doing that is about $2000. Obviously, higher limits and more tables have more potential.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hi bruiser,

just a quick question. do you have any significant experience at all playing limit hold'em? if not, i think 4 tabling 5/10 6 max games is a terrible way to learn. i would learn full ring limit first with less tables to get a good grasp. i know you've been making a bundle of money at no limit, but it won't be the same at the same levels between limit and no limit.

i've been dabbling in 30/60 and 50/100 limit lately but I would never play the 25/50 NL games on UB because my no limit skills just aren't up to par with my limit skills and I wouldn't expect to make X dollars an hour doing so just because I am capable of making that much at limit.

[Richie Rich]

I appreciate the clarification. Since I still play no-limit most of the time, and don't yet have a very strong grasp on limit, I was always under the general assumption that 2-3BB/100 was a strong, overall winning rate.

If Bruiser is playing 3-4 6max tables at the same time, then he is probably gets about 250 hands per hour. Am I way off? And if he's earning about 3BB/100 at the 5/10 tables, then that's about $75/hour. Even if you upped his stakes to 15/30, then that's $225/hour if he's "killing the game" over the long run.

I guess he wasn't as far off from $250/hr as I originally thought. Nevertheless, for a no-limit player who recently jumped into limit and took a pretty big downswing early on, I still think his guesstimate earnings/hr are too high. But then again, I'm speaking about a game in which I have no long-term experience...perhaps my two cents is worth just that.

[DrSavage]

[ QUOTE ]

If Bruiser is playing 3-4 6max tables at the same time, then he is probably gets about 250 hands per hour.


[/ QUOTE ]

4 shorthanded tables on party is more like 400 hands/hour. Somewhere in 380/hour area on average

[fsuplayer]

6 max tables play about 85-95 hands per hour, depending on the table. I usually 4 table and a'vg about 350 HPH.

at 15-30, from what i have heard, you can easily play 6-8 tables w/o giving up much EV at all.

so no, $250 an hour would not be extraordinary.

[Ulysses]

I 4-table 10/20 6-max and average 400 hands/hr. One or two of those tables are usually 3-handed or 4-handed.

[Ulysses]

BTW, Bruiser is far, far from being able to make $250/hr playing limit. I was merely pointing out that if he were to become an expert limit player, making >$250/hr is very doable at limits like 10/20 and 15/30, not the high limits you had suggested. Whether or not Bruiser has the ability to play at that level is a completely different question.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
Bruiser is far, far from being able to make $250/hr playing limit

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to emphasize this point. Right now I'm a losing 5/10 limit player and it will be a long time and a lot of work before I get to the ambitious goal of $200+ an hour.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I just want to emphasize this point. Right now I'm a losing 5/10 limit player and it will be a long time and a lot of work before I get to the ambitious goal of $200+ an hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

when you say you're a losing player are you talking about your results thus far or you really believe that you are a losing player? because if the latter is true, wouldn't it just be cheaper to learn the game at lower limits or are you're fine with an "expensive education" ?

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bruiser is far, far from being able to make $250/hr playing limit

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to emphasize this point. Right now I'm a losing 5/10 limit player and it will be a long time and a lot of work before I get to the ambitious goal of $200+ an hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I think that honing your NL game might be a viable option. Frankly, I'm just starting to play online NLHE for real, so I have no idea what type of win rate is possible. But, my guess is that Bruiser could easily do $200/hr playing 5/10 NL.

Am I way off suggesting that he stick to NL?

ML4L

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
But, my guess is that Bruiser could easily do $200/hr playing 5/10 NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

From my limited experience playing with him, I wouldn't say that. But I haven't played that game in a couple of months, so perhaps I'm wrong.

[theBruiser500]

Playing NLHE I made $170-$200 an hour. I've wanted to learn limit HE for a while but for this reason it's been really hard to get started, why play limit HE and make $20 an hour when I could be making 10 times as much playing NLHE? Well I'm not exactly sure. I have a bunch of vague reasons in my head. I like the idea of being a well rounded player. If the NLHE games ever dry up I like the flexibility, and people tell me there is more money to be made in limit.. I'm skeptical of this last point right now since I'm under the impression that the best players on PS make $300 an hour playing NLHE. Some of the time the NLHE games aren't good (actually, a lot of the times they aren't good), supposedly limit games are always good so it would help to have limit HE for game selection.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm skeptical of this last point right now since I'm under the impression that the best players on PS make $300 an hour playing NLHE. Some of the time the NLHE games aren't good (actually, a lot of the times they aren't good), supposedly limit games are always good so it would help to have limit HE for game selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very few of those players are making $300/hr playing 5/10NL on Stars. And I suspect most of those that do exercise game selection and don't play much when the games are bad. For a pro, it's not just the hourly rate that's important, but how many hours a week you can get in at that rate.

On the other hand, one can jump into 10/20 6-max or 15/30 at any time and the games are always good enough to make > $200/hr 4-tabling and substantially more if you want to 6 or 8-table.

Just for kicks, I'm pulling up some sites right now to check....

PS: 4 full, 2 short 5/10 NL games

UB: 2 full, 3 short 5/10 NL games

Party: 61 10/20 games, 74 15/30 games

There is way more money to be made in limit right now, and it's not close. I personally find NL to be much more fun. When I'm in the mood to play longer sessions online, it's almost always NL. Usually I just screw around for an hour or so, though, which 6-max is really good for (I might not get involved in any interesting hands in NL in an hour, whereas I'll be involved in 100+ hands in 6-max). But if I had to do this and make the maximum possible earn w/ the lowest risk, it's not even close. I'd 8-table 15/30 and make $350-400/hr.

When you get to the next stage of limits above 15/30 LHE and 5/10 NLHE, the same statements hold true. There's a lot more money and a lot more games to be found in limit as opposed to NL.

[Jason Strasser]

First of all, I'm not mad that there are people out there who play fulltime poker and make a living out of it. This is a right you are completely entitled to. I personally think spending a life taking money from other people is not something I will be happy with. Yet--that is just my choice and I am in a position where I have other options than poker for my living.

What makes me really sick is when people like Bruiser see a number like $250/hr and decide that school is not worth it.

I have a friend who is suspended from school because he made a dumb mistake letting someone else copy multiple assignments. Everyday, he wakes up, and wishes he could be on campus with his friends, or be in class and do homework, etc. College is the best, poker is just a card game.

How exciting is waking up everyday and playing cards? Why on earth would you want to throw away your college life because some guy named El Diablo or GuyOnTilt can make 250/hr? The way you talk about money Bruiser, its as if you have never held a job working for 7/hr at a bakery or 6/hr at a museum.

I really hope online poker just dries up so you realize soon enough that passing on college is a mistake. Relying on poker for supplemental income, or as a source of entertainment is great, quitting college because of it makes no sense.

And by the way, you are still on campus, you can still turn stuff around.

-Jason

[bicyclekick]

diablo, you've gotta be making more that 2.25 bb/100 which 8 tables of 15/30 at 70 hands per hour winning 400 per hour equals out to.

If you say you only get 60 hands per hour (wayyyy low estimate) it equals 2.7 and I know you're beating that too.

Don't be so humble, you do (would) make more than that.

/unless my math is wrong and that's entirely possible, my brain is fried.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, I'm not mad that there are people out there who play fulltime poker and make a living out of it. This is a right you are completely entitled to. I personally think spending a life taking money from other people is not something I will be happy with. Yet--that is just my choice and I am in a position where I have other options than poker for my living.

What makes me really sick is when people like Bruiser see a number like $250/hr and decide that school is not worth it.

I have a friend who is suspended from school because he made a dumb mistake letting someone else copy multiple assignments. Everyday, he wakes up, and wishes he could be on campus with his friends, or be in class and do homework, etc. College is the best, poker is just a card game.

How exciting is waking up everyday and playing cards? Why on earth would you want to throw away your college life because some guy named El Diablo or GuyOnTilt can make 250/hr? The way you talk about money Bruiser, its as if you have never held a job working for 7/hr at a bakery or 6/hr at a museum.

I really hope online poker just dries up so you realize soon enough that passing on college is a mistake. Relying on poker for supplemental income, or as a source of entertainment is great, quitting college because of it makes no sense.

And by the way, you are still on campus, you can still turn stuff around.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen brother.

I love college. Who could really pass this [censored] up? Aren't you having the time of your life? I almost wanna take a 5th year after I graduate just to stick around.

Ask any 30 year old what they would give to be 18-21 and in college again. I bet they'd give the world.

I guess it's not for everyone and going to class isn't 'fun', but the whole situation sure as hell beats getting up at 6am, driving 45 minutes to work, working til 5, driving an hour home, getting home at 6pm like my dad does.

Screw that, I'll take a couple hours of class here and there.

I guess I got preachin too. It is your life, though, and I respect your decisions. I just dont' understand them.

[theBruiser500]

Strassar, at first I was indignant at your post, it shocked me because it sounded so righteous. I reread it though and see what you're saying. This is what I think it comes down to. I have tried my best to enjoy college but failed. I really do wish I thought "college is the best" like you do because I know "poker is just a card game." I don't place much value on money and I just play poker as a way of passing time right now. If there were something else I thought I could be doing that I'd really enjoy, I'd surely be doing it.

Thinking about this post I'm making, I realize it's pathetic that I can't make college work for me. But that is the way it is right now, there's a good chance I will try again next year.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Amen brother.

I love college. Who could really pass this [censored] up? Aren't you having the time of your life? I almost wanna take a 5th year after I graduate just to stick around.

Ask any 30 year old what they would give to be 18-21 and in college again. I bet they'd give the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said,

Bruiser, the happiest time for me that I can remember was when I attended university for my five years. I met a lot of great friends, of whom I still keep in touch with. I participated in a lot of extracurricular activities. But most important of all, I learned a lot about myself which opened a greater perspective to how I saw this world.

There is nothing I wouldn't do to go back and live it again.

Poker is not going to run dry anytime soon Bruiser. You're a good player, and you will have the ability to make lots more money. But your youth comes only once and you should be enjoying this time with your peers and having fun like a normal college kid should instead of trying to max out the greatest BB/100 hands you can achieve.

Trust me, it's no fun going back to college when you are 30 and taking classes around 21 year olds.

[Ulysses]

Great post, Jason. I couldn't agree more. Taking your post one step further, dropping out to play online poker will for many people make it much less likely that they get exposed to opportunties to explore and pursue careers that could be much more interesting and fulfilling for them. I really do believe that the state of online poker today will result in a fair number of young people who in the not too distant future find themselves unqualified to pursue anything that can provide a lifestyle similar to what they got used to during a few years of excessively profitable poker.

[Ulysses]

One more thing. There's no better place to learn how to make friendships and develop strong relationships than in college. At the exact opposite end of that spectrum I'd put playing online poker full-time.

[1800GAMBLER]

I really really hate the way you have presented the arguement of 'stay in school'.

[ QUOTE ]
I have a friend who is suspended from school because he made a dumb mistake letting someone else copy multiple assignments. Everyday, he wakes up, and wishes he could be on campus with his friends, or be in class and do homework, etc. College is the best, poker is just a card game.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've given an example of one friend who enjoys college and wishes he was there, super. Your last line also applies you'd much rather be at school and you don't have much interest in poker, again great for you. Yet you must see there's another side to this coin?

[ QUOTE ]
How exciting is waking up everyday and playing cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

For you not very. For bruiser it is. Bruiser has a love for logic, games and thinking strategy and it's amazing that he can earn a living doing something he enjoys so why stay in college for another 4 years to get a degree leading him somewhere he doesn't want to be? There are reasons, such as a back up plan, life experience, self-awareness etc, but you didn't argue this you just took the attitude 'college is the best'. You took a very one sided personal view.

I agree for the majority of people dropping out of college would be a stupid idea, a huge percentage of people who are at college are there to give themselves an extra 4 years of their life to try to find what they want to do and being there has a side effect benefit for them, life experience, friendship etc. However some people have already found this.

However i do agree the way bruiser went about this - missing classes and failing - didn't really give himself many options and shows he hasn't considered a life changing decision carefully.

[Sponger15SB]

If I was making $250/hr playing poker you couldn't force me to go to school unless you paid me $300 an hour.

I'm not very smart and I'm a poly sci major, I'd have to be smoking crack to believe I'll make even $70,000 a year by the time I'm 35.

Then again I'm in my 3rd year so getting my BA isn't that far off.

You guys do realize there are people out there who make $7 an hour at their jobs for their whole lives right?

[rloftin]

WHY

[Jason Strasser]

Jay,

[ QUOTE ]
There are reasons, such as a back up plan, life experience, self-awareness etc, but you didn't argue this you just took the attitude 'college is the best'. You took a very one sided personal view.


[/ QUOTE ]
You are right about my one-sided view. I can't really understand how someone would like a card game more than interacting in a social environment like college. I think my argument does, however, fit under 'life experience'.

I love poker. Just because I said that I think waking up every day and playing poker would be hell for me, does not mean that I don't love cards. My post was triggered not by the "I'm dropping out of school to make money" line of thought, but rather the "I hear you can make xxx playing limit holdem which comes to xxx/year, so I'm going to f*** school so I can put xxx in the bank." Bruiser said it so casually that it stung.

The bottom line is, however gratifying playing cards is for you, there are inherent social standards and even economic standards in society (in my view) where there is not room for the casually professional poker player. To be a poker professional long term, you need to adjust and adjust and study and find new games, etc. People just won't lose enough money online to keep every bruiser in the world happy with a six-figure income.

Socially, there is no room either. You either play cards on line in your underwear, or you play in a casino. And while there are many special moments to be had playing cards both online, and in the casino, society will never accept it fully. If you quit poker, and try to get back in the real world of jobs, most of the time you will have to explain your way out of your past.

The only thing you have to fall back on is the money you are making, and that may not even be certain in the near future.

If Bruiser loves math and logic so much, he should get a formal education in it. My friend the other day (since you love friend references) had a stats project due and it was all about random betting strategies at a roulette table. His assignment was literally one big EV equation.

Once again, I respect everyone's right and various reasons for going pro. My purpose is not to go on some crusade. However, I really feel strongly that Bruiser realizes what he's missing.

-Jason

P.S. I posted an article recently in NVG about the college poker scene where I go to school. There's plenty of life here on that front.

[Jason Strasser]

Sponger,

If it comes down to cold hard cash, then sure, live your life around that. If that is truly your number one measurement stick in life (your income), then I respect your decision to play pro poker because that's the most lucrative.

I'm an engineering major and I'm definitely in the bottom 1/4 of my class, so I'm no rocket science either. I just think that what I want in a job will come down to so much more than money.

-Jason

[turnipmonster]

hey bruiser, just to add my 2 cents in I think college is what you make of it. I enjoyed college, but had a lot different experiences than most people here and I don't look back and wish I was in college again or anything like that, although I enjoyed some things about it.

to echo what others have said I think that it's very important that you decide whether or not you want to be there and plan accordingly instead of just failing out.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

jason, I just wanted to comment that you seem to have a really great outlook on these types of things, and I agree with almost everything you've said. working is really about so much more than paying the rent, or at least it can be.

--turnipmonster

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
so I'm no rocket science either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, Jason, indeed. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Sponger15SB]

Ok, I guess my post made me look pretty greedy and that money is the only thing that could make me happy, however that is not quite the case.

I just really hate working. This summer I worked 70 hours a week at the San Diego county fair, 2 crappy jobs @ $9 an hour.

I realized that not only do I really not like working long hours even though I could easily do it, but I hate dealing with my coworkers who were incredibly lazy, stupid, greedy, and jealous, but customers (or clients, or whoever in the future) as well.

I came to the realization a couple years ago that I'd never be rich, however as long as online poker lasts I'd certainly be interested in giving it a shot.

There are plenty of people here who are incredibly smart and gifted and motivated who could apply themselves to make lots of money outside of the poker world, however I am not one of them.

Besides there is nothing wrong with postponing sitting in a cubicle for the rest of my life for a few years to make some real money and enjoy life while I still can.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How exciting is waking up everyday and playing cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

For you not very. For bruiser it is. Bruiser has a love for logic, games and thinking strategy

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds a little like me. My college life kinda sucked since I commuted to an engineering school that was 90% male, and higher in my major courses.

I spent most of my time studying chess instead of class work, and at the time there was no chance I was going to make any money from chess. Now teaching classes for kids and private lessons is a viable profession for many chess players here, but that's not my thing really, and at the time there was no way to see this coming.

I did well in any class that graded only by testing, but not so well in any that required papers, lab reports, etc to be turned in. But I muddled through and after taking some time off and going part time, finished the degree.

One problem with any kind of technical field is that, unless you get into a really good company, you will always be working for people much less knowledgable about the technology than you are (kind of like the old pointy-haired boss from Dilbert). It's funny I think the only people I ever worked for whose intelligence I respected were my parents, who owned several different businesses as I was growing up.

I think really the only way I will be happy is working for myself, so whether that is with poker alone, or using poker to spike my income and get some cash to start a business, it's a good way to go for me, and I have no problem putting in lots of hours playing online poker.

All that said I still think there is some value in bruiser finishing SOME kind of degree, for all of the reasons others have given, just in case.

[astroglide]

i didn't go to college but at least i was lucky enough to date a girl that lived in dorms and lived in a college house with like 473268 other people. it still would have been nice to go. oh well.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so I'm no rocket science either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, Jason, indeed. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Diablo you are a rotten bastard. Lol.

[Steve Giufre]

I was in your situation about few years ago. I had been through three and a half years of school, and was at the point where I had really had enough and was doing pretty well playing poker. Finally with under 30 credits left I quit, moved to California and started playing everyday. Everything has really worked out pretty well, poker has been great and and I've met a lot of cool people. But I really am a total idiot for not finishing up while I was there. I always told myself I would go back and finish but it so much harder once you are removed from it for a few years. You also better be really sure you are ready to deal with all the sleepless miserable nights, the downswings, the uncomfotable situations like meeting your new girlfriends parents and trying to explain what you do for a living, being around scumbags in cardrooms all the time, etc. IMO coping with losses is not the difficult part, its keeping yourself together, staying on a good sleep schedule, explaing your lifestlye to friends and family, stuff like that. It really can be a pain in the ass.

I really believe a lot of people arnt cut out for 9-5 jobs, and if you can make a good living playing poker I say why not. But droping out would be crazy. You can play plenty of poker while your in school, and you it will be a little tougher to go out and and nail girls once you get out so you should enjoy it while you are there /images/graemlins/smirk.gif. I say relax, play enjoy yourself and try to get through it with a degree. If you didnt have the option of playing online I could see it since you would need the time to travel and play, but thats not the case. Leave your options open, just in case you dont want to play poker for the next fourty years of your life.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so I'm no rocket science either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, Jason, indeed. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That there is some good humor.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Leave your options open, just in case you dont want to play poker for the next fourty years of your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Leave your options open, just in case you dont want to play poker for the next fourty years of your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Conversely, playing fervently the next couple of years can allow yourself the bank to allow you to make your money work for you for the rest of your life, with smart investment decisions.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Leave your options open, just in case you dont want to play poker for the next fourty years of your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Conversely, playing fervently the next couple of years can allow yourself the bank to allow you to make your money work for you for the rest of your life, with smart investment decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, some online players will save a lot, educate themselves about smart business and investment decisions and parlay their poker winnings into a solid mix of high return and passive income investments. My guess, though, is that most of the kids who quit school to play poker won't fall into this category.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]


Yes, some online players will save a lot, educate themselves about smart business and investment decisions and parlay their poker winnings into a solid mix of high return and passive income investments. My guess, though, is that most of the kids who quit school to play poker won't fall into this category.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly haven't met one. I know a bunch with cool cars, though.

scrub

[Jason Strasser]

Bah.

Did I mention I studied engineering?

[theBruiser500]

As Schneids points out, I don't think this takes away from my flexibility, in fact part of the reason I'm playing poker is to add to my flexibility. The more money I get in the bank now (I'm starting to study investing too) the more options I will have in the future about what sort of job I take, college, etc. BTW, the reason I want to max out my hourly rate is not so I can make more money, but so I can so I can play less hours making the money. In the meantime, this is just one semester I am taking off from college, next year I can reconsider if I want to go back.

Almost everytime I talk to people about college they say I really have to do it, it's the best option for everyone and then I agree. But when I try to apply myself at college it doesn't work out and I'm not so sure it's the best option for me. Jay, contrary to what you say I have considered this a lot. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, and admittedly I know nothing about this, but I consider myself a resourceful person and if I wanted to get a good non-poker job without a college education I think I could.

In the meantime I don't plan to spend my time just playing poker online every day. I'm considering many options like travelling with a friend, hiking the appalachian trail, studying kung fu in China, etc. These are things that might turn out to be time better spent than at college. I think there's a good chance I'd like college A LOT more if I were at a good school, like Harvard where everyone is a lot smarter. What do you think?

Even though this thread wasn't supposed to turn into this, there have been a lot of good responses, thanks.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
In the meantime I don't plan to spend my time just playing poker online every day. I'm considering many options like travelling with a friend, hiking the appalachian trail, studying kung fu in China, etc. These are things that might turn out to be time better spent than at college. I think there's a good chance I'd like college A LOT more if I were at a good school, like Harvard where everyone is a lot smarter. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

While the sorts of things that you suggest are certainly worthwhile pursuits, they are not the sorts of things that allow one to attain skills and contacts that will be useful in acquiring different sorts of jobs down the road, should that be your desire.

I don't doubt that you've thought about this particular topic a lot, but I think you're underestimating just how many doors you may be shutting.

[theBruiser500]

4 years is a long time to spend as a means to an end.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
4 years is a long time to spend as a means to an end.

[/ QUOTE ]

College is not just a means to an end. There are parties and it's super easy to get drunk and stoned and laid and make friends and stuff like that. You should also be able to identify at least some classes at a major institution that are intellectually interesting to you.

Also, four years is not a particularly long time, unless you're terminally ill or something.

[greg nice]

bruiser,
these people mean well, but they are not YOU. only you can make the final decision. i heard this same advice before regarding school and im still deciding whether i want to stick out two more years. i honestly see no need for college. i dont plan on using the degree and the social aspect is non existent with me being a commuter in a small school. college just doesnt make sense to me in MY SITUATION. plenty of caring, onlooking relatives tell me not to drop out. but how could someone else know whats best for ME? anyway, im just adding another opinion. i think, depending on the person, writing school off IS an option.

ps: ill save the flamers face before they make fools of themselves.. i dont play poker full time and never plan on it. poker has about zero influence on my situation.

[fimbulwinter]

In exchange for having helped my NL game and probably being partially responsible for the amount of money i've made i offer you this:

if you are ever in LA, i'll give you lessons, free of charge, in enjoying college life. all i ask is 10% of your additional BAC and 25% of your increased play.

fim

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there's a good chance I'd like college A LOT more if I were at a good school, like Harvard where everyone is a lot smarter. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a load of crap.

scrub