LHE final table hand

[M.B.E.]

Nine of us at the final table. Remaining payouts range from $1500 and $1000 for 1st and 2nd down to $130 and $85 for 8th and 9th.

I am currently sixth with 22K. Limits are 2K/4K (blinds 1K/2K). The second-largest stack limps in EMP, a small stack limps after him. I limp on the button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB folds; four of us see the flop with 9K in the pot.

FLOP: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, big stack bets, small stack calls, I call, BB folds. Now 15K in the pot. 18K in my stack.

TURN: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Big stack bets 4K, small stack calls (leaving him with only 5K). I fold.

Interested in comments on all streets.

[ghostface]

good fold

[M.B.E.]

River was the 3/images/graemlins/club.gif. The big stack bet 4K and the small stack folded, so I didn't get to see either of their hands. I thought the small stack's play was weird -- when he called the turn I figured he had either a club draw or a 6 for a made straight. But that's not consistent with his fold on the river (leaving him with just 5K chips).

As for my play, I agree with ghostface that my turn fold was correct. I'm not so sure about my preflop and flop play.

Generally speaking, if I arrive at the final table with a medium-size stack, my strategy is to play conservatively for a little while. Often that way I can advance three or four rungs up the ladder, and the difference between fifth place and ninth place is usually worth it.

That's why I didn't raise preflop. In a LHE cash game I would always raise preflop on the button with A8 suited after a couple of limpers. In the early stages of a tournament I'd have done the same thing. But when my entire stack was just 22K, I didn't want to invest 4K preflop (especially with the potential for a limpreraise from the big stack). I wonder whether folding this preflop would have been better than calling.

On the flop, I had one overcard, a gutshot draw, and a backdoor flush draw. In other words, not much of anything. Perhaps in a cash game calling would have been correct, here I think I should have folded. The main consideration is that there is so much value in conserving chips until a few more players go broke. If I called the flop and then hit an ace or a spade on the turn, I will have to spend at least 4K, perhaps 8K more chips on the hand when there's a good chance I will not win.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder whether folding this preflop would have been better than calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the first thing that popped into my head when I read that part of the post. Not sure what I'd do in the heat of battle, but if I'm not the lowest 1 or 2 when it comes to stack size, I'd probably pass on this with two limpers already in the pot. If there was only one limper, then I think it becomes a raise probably, if you think you can drive out the blinds.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I had one overcard, a gutshot draw, and a backdoor flush draw. In other words, not much of anything. Perhaps in a cash game calling would have been correct, here I think I should have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to fold the flop. Even if you hit a 6 on the turn, you have redraws out against you, as another 8, or club, could torpedo you. As the hand played out, it would have really sucked to have that 3rd club hit, and have to make a decision if you're bet into on the river.

I think decisions like the ones in this kind of hand are very interesting, when it comes to limit tournaments. Since you're potentially going all-in on any hand with the size of the bets, you almost have to switch to a NL mindset IMO when you get to a final table, or near one. In this case I'd look at it like the kind of decision I'd make in a NL tournament - with two limpers, and the blinds yet to act, I just don't like A8s that much.

[La Brujita]

This is such an interesting hand I am surprised it didn't get more comment. I think in a cash game you probably raise the flop. I think folding preflop here needs to be seriously considered due to tourney considerations.

That among other things makes this hand very interesting imo since you would most likely raise in a cash game preflop.

I call the flop most likely and fold the turn.

[jslag]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I had one overcard, a gutshot draw, and a backdoor flush draw. In other words, not much of anything. Perhaps in a cash game calling would have been correct, here I think I should have folded. The main consideration is that there is so much value in conserving chips until a few more players go broke. If I called the flop and then hit an ace or a spade on the turn, I will have to spend at least 4K, perhaps 8K more chips on the hand when there's a good chance I will not win.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely what I was going to post. I don't like the flop call at all, you really only have three clean outs to your inside straight since someone may hold a club flush draw. Your overcard isn't necessarily good since you could be out-kicked, and again the Ac may not be clean.