Pot Limit Omaha 8 hand

This is actually a tounrament hand, but as i am not concerned over how it related to tournament play i am posting it here.


Early stages of tournament. $25/$50 blinds. Original bank $1000. I have $3,200 in big blind, most have about $800-1200. Live one in mid position has $2800, small blind has $2300.


Live one raises the pot in mid position, 3 callers including the small blind, I have AhAc2s4h. I decide to just call rather than try to get heads up with the live one, as he may be inclined to release his hand against a bigger stack. (comments?)


5 players take the As3h5h flop. I have EVERYTHING. Uncounterfeitable nut low, a wheel, top set, and the nut flush draw. Small blind bets out for the size of the pot.


Now what should i do? I am in very poor position directly behind the bettor, and would like to bring more players in on this hand, particularly the live one. I do have to worry about a non heart 2 4 6 or 7 falling however, as this could see me quartered.


How would you play it, attempting to take all of the other players stacks if possible.

glad you said it was a tournament because at first I was frightened of the thought of playing any split pot game for pot limit stakes!!!


it would be a shame to get quartered, but your hand is so strong seems like you have to just flat call and let others come in, at least for now

Yes, call. Absolutely. Your only real fear is if the live one reraises SB's bet and drives out the two remaining players. If you are in fact quartered for low and miss the high you're still making money as long as a raising war doesn't drive out two of the other players. You want to be the gray man in this one.


I'm guessing you did call, missed the flush and got beaten for high. I'm also guessing the live one got counterfeited but one of the other limpers ended up quartering you on the turn or river. If so, by calling on the flop you still played it right IMO.


So what did happen?

with about 800 or 1000 in with your preflop call you have as much in there as some have left. id raise and hope to win it right there or get headup and win it on the flop if he had any left.

after the flop you get bet into so alot of what you can win is already in there. and by not raising you are giving three to one to the rest of the players to call. i think i would rather get the money now headup rather than maybe seeing an ace high straight on the river and splitting or getting quartered.

part of the problem is that the hands that will call do have draws that you may not want in. of course if they are all fools that will call dead, then it is for sure a slowplay.

a lot of the reason for raisng also is the chance that it will knock out any ties with you. if it will it sways it that way too.

Anyway, I flat called and got the live one to call with me. The turn was an offsuit 9, and I got allin. 6 hit the river and i ended up winning the low half with 47 taking the high by the live one.


Very strange end to proceedings but i feel by going for the trap i cost myself winning the whole pot. However as it was, we chopped the small blinds stack (why he was betting i'll never know) and probably netted more from it that winning with a raise on the flop. That said if the raise on the flop got rid of the live one, and the small blind called (why i don't know) i could have had his whole stack to myself.

A couple of things I don't understand Ray. Would appreciate some clarification.


You said i think i would rather get the money now headup rather than maybe seeing an ace high straight on the river and splitting or getting quartered


With a flop of As3h5h, Ace high str8 is a bit of a longshot isn't it? I'd be more worried about a 7 high str8 (is that what you meant?), but even then, aren't my odds at 1.9 - 1 of drawing a flush by the river better than my opponents' odds of making a 7 high straight by the river if he does in fact hold 46?


You said a lot of the reason for raisng also is the chance that it will knock out any ties with you


I understand the correctness of this statement but I'm curious - how many players are capable of folding the nut low? I know you and some other very good players are (I've read your hi/low book a few times) but in real life I've never folded the nut low even though yes, I pretty much knew I'd be quartered. Okay, that tells you I'm not up there in the big leagues and that assessment would be correct. But in reality, is it worthwhile to make a big raise hoping the other guy with a nut low will fold?


Thanks. Paul

i used the ace high straight to show that you find yourself surprised in omaha with so many hands that you dont really consider. i didnt really mean you would expect to see that hand. in omaha when you give a cheap card or free card its much more dangerous than holdem as in this case he was also trying to get many players in.

as far as players folding winning ties that is a function of the players, and you have to factor that in . i cant for a particular game. but in pot limit you should always find alot that will.

<BLOCKQUOTE>I understand the correctness of this statement but I'm curious - how many players are capable of folding the nut low?</BLOCKQUOTE>


In the PL/NL O8 games it's pretty easy to drop the nut low if you have a big stack that can be attacked. When the flop hits you really want to see your other cards work into the hand in some way. This is especially true when your nut low is a dry A2. Not only can you split but can get counterfitted. The interesting thing here is that his nut low is an unbreakable 2 4. I think it would be much more difficult to get someone to drop this hand in this situation.

I bow to both Mack and Ray's experience. And according to Mr. Peterson's results, Ray is right. It turns out Mr. P should have raised on the flop. I would still, wrongly it seems, slowplay this right down to the river in the hopes of 1)hitting a flush to probably win high and 2)getting more money in the pot. I still have a long way to go in O8.

his hand was very strong and it may indeed have been right to slowplay it. but i gave a diffent side of the picture. this was pot limit and the stacks can influence alot of the play as you cannot count on winning the chips from the big stack. the players that you are facing are really the determining factor in many cases.

I might be mistaken, but I believe Mr. Peterson stated that most players had $800-1200 and that the live one had raised the pot (blinds 25-50) before the flop. Mr. Peterson just called with his monster and there were three (other?) callers. After the flop the small blind bet the pot- this is a bet of AT LEAST $700, most likely more. The live one should have about $2600 left (preflop call $200), so calling or raising will probable get the same result- the players involved will go all-in, if not on the flop than on the turn. The situation Mr. Peterson describes would have been very interesting in a live game with very deep money (and believe me, in Europe there ARE huge PLO/8 live games), but that is not the case here. BTW, I don't like the before-the-flop call. You stated that you were afraid the live one might drop, but that would not be too bad, would it? You would win the pot-sized raise by the live one plus the small blind's call as well, this is a lot better than getting more than 5% of your stack against three opponents, out of postion, when you will have to be lucky to win half the pot- you could have won a lot of valuable tournament chips without any risk or, if your re-raise DOES get called by someone, you would have been in perfect position to scoop.

Yes - somebody said he was shocked at the idea of a split-pot game played pot limit. But I play in such a game on a regular basis. It's a perfectly reasonable way to play poker.


I would never play any Europeans in such a game, simply because they have far more experience at it, but it's actually quite fun.


Regards, Lee

In Texas, at one time I could play split pot games No Limit seven nights a week. Depending on the table, it can be excruciatingly boring as you wait for a hand, or there can be a lot of opportunities for moves and it's as if you were playing every deal. It's a perfectly viable format for people who like to play no limit.

what part of Texas....sure wasn't Houston

Hard to believe, isn't it. Ask the oldtimers tomorrow at Sonny's...

WOW you must be going way back!!!!


are you IN houston area???

I play in Houston occasionally when I am in town. I played more frequently during the oil boom of the late 70's when Houston was the action capitol of the known universe.

the only Mack which I recall from Houston games is Mack Fisher, but he sure wasn't phat


compared to those boom days, big bet poker in Houston is now ________ not even sure what word to use??? just limping along ????


good luck to you