Wild one.

[BigEndian]

UTG and UTG+1 are wild and loose. The rest of the seats are average to unknown. The table is generally loose however - this is PP 3/6 after all.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: BigEndian is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">BigEndian raises</font>, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, BigEndian checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, BigEndian calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">BigEndian raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, BigEndian calls.

River: (19.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, BigEndian checks.

Final Pot: 19.66 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19.66 BB, between BB, UTG, UTG+1 and BigEndian.</font>

- Jim

[gaming_mouse]

Is folding on the flop here reasonable?

Of course BB might have been trying to steal, but since he's betting into 4 players he might just as well really have a Q. And one of the callers might have Q weak kicker suited, especially if the game is loose. Not to mention those diamonds which you'll have worry over assuming you hit one of your 6 outs, of which only 3 are clean.

What do you think?

gm

[Azhrarn]

Hmm. On the flop, 14-1 and you're closing the action... I would fold anyway.

Nice turn raise.

I'm guessing BB either had his two pair counterfeited at the end, or he got tricky and tried to checkraise a flush with his boat. You probably beat the UTG brothers, although they could have weak trips or a weak flush if they're passive. I would check at the end as well.

[private joker]

I like the turn raise, but did you consider folding to the reraise? I can't think of any hands BB would check/3-bet with that don't have you drawing slim to dead. Your ace outs for 2 pair might be no good. And even if they are, I doubt you want to see the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You have 2 jack outs, but one of those is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Plus, UTG, the original turn bettor, has called the 3-bet as well. One of those two players most likely has you dominated.

I like the preflop, flop, and river.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Is folding on the flop here reasonable?


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is...BigEndian must have been feeling frisky to chase that flop with nothing more than just a naked ace.

[BigEndian]

Of all the streets I think the flop might be the most dubious - even getting 14-1. I have a tought time believing the call is bad however - closing the action given the audience and where the bet came from.

That's not saying any of the streets is great.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

Getting 18-1, can your really fold the turn again closing the action?

There's more than enough overlay there to draw even if you are dominated on some occaisions. The key thing is, occaisional. I'm most likey either drawing fairly live or completely dead to a possible set. In fact, until the river action, the 3-bettor might be on a flush draw himself.

- Jim

[sthief09]

I think check--over-over-over-calling this flop is a distant 3rd behind betting and check-folding.

[BigEndian]

I was probably guilty of being a little frisky, but I'm not convinced the flop is outright wrong. Especially not given the audience and the location from which the bet came from.

- Jim

[sthief09]

if you're going to call this bet, you might as well just bet yourself to (1) thin the field, and (2) try and get a free river card.

the board is not that coordinated, and it's Q high, so there are plenty of hands that will now muck to a preflop raiser's bet

[Jeff W]

I strongly dislike check-calling the flop with no backdoor draws and tainted outs. I would bet the flop. Check-folding is fine also. I like the rest of the hand though I might get myself into trouble on the river in the heat of battle sometimes by betting.

[BigEndian]

I don't believe a bet on the flop thins the field of any hands you might be concerned about. This is further evidenced by the calling action once the button bets. Checking is most correct on the flop in my opinion.

Once it comes back to me the worst case scenario is someone out there has AQ another has a set and another has the flush draw. But the button could just as well have a mid pair and the rest have typical cards loose low limit players don't like to fold (JT, KJ, AT, 88, yada, yada). If the action was raised back to me, I think that makes it an obvious check-fold. As it stood, why are players so worried about monsters they don't make this call?

- Jim

[easypete]

Jim -

Ok... not too wild about the flop call, but what about the river?

BB had the lead after the turn and checks... the other two opponents check behind? I think you're good (or splitting w/ BB). Don't you think this is worth a value bet, as a flush from UTG or UTG+1 may have bet out here ahead of you?

[molawn2mo]

"I think check--over-over-over-calling this flop is a distant 3rd behind betting and check-folding."

sthief is 100%, no, 1000% correct, imho. the only way to play this hand, if you choose to continue it at all, is to lead it. you can not play this from behind.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe a bet on the flop thins the field of any hands you might be concerned about. This is further evidenced by the calling action once the button bets. Checking is most correct on the flop in my opinion.

Once it comes back to me the worst case scenario is someone out there has AQ another has a set and another has the flush draw. But the button could just as well have a mid pair and the rest have typical cards loose low limit players don't like to fold (JT, KJ, AT, 88, yada, yada). If the action was raised back to me, I think that makes it an obvious check-fold. As it stood, why are players so worried about monsters they don't make this call?

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly the reason you should bet the flop rather than check-call.

[BigEndian]

I dunno Erik, I feel like it's pretty obvious I was behind on the turn after the 3-bettor check on the scary river card. Maybe he has AJ also or KJ, but I don't have the stones to bet this river.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

I guess I'm being dense, what is "exactly the reason"? Betting out will not chase these players on this flop. I probably need to improve - even if it is against a small-mid pocket pair(s) or some kind of queen. By check-calling, the same number of people see the turn and I get odds to chase.

- Jim

[MaxPower]

Let's say your opponents have exactly the hands you suggested:

JT, KJ, AT, 88

We don't know which play has which hand. We also know that on Party the button will often bet no matter what he has.

You have A /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif

The flop is;
5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif

There are 10 small bets in the pot.

Now, do you think betting or checking and calling is the play?

[pistol78]

[ QUOTE ]
Once it comes back to me the worst case scenario is someone out there has AQ another has a set and another has the flush draw.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

So why are we still in the hand?

[BigEndian]

And this is where I say checking, looking for the free card, and calling if the button bets and it's 14-1 back to is not the un-right play. I guess the point of contention is that I believe each one of those players is going to call the flop. If a blank falls on the turn, can I really continue to lead out into the field? I think not. Therefore, what is my flop bet looking to accomplish?

Checking, potentially getting the free card and calling when it's back to me closing the action still looks decent.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

You can't play winning poker making actions based on worst-case scenarios...

- Jim

[beginner]

I usually would fold to the flop bet. Just doesn't look worth playing IMO.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't play winning poker making actions based on worst-case scenarios...

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that, but when the action gets to you on the flop, how many outs are you giving yourself?

I don't like the call. If you are going to put money in on the flop, you should bet.

[BigEndian]

That's a very relavent question. 3 outs to me is reasonable - heavily discounting the J and A. That you don't advocate the call, you must put the tally at 1-2 outs? That's really heavily discounting the outs.

If it's that close between 3-1 outs (or maybe more if someone would go that far) depending on how you rate the outs, that itself should speak to that call not being bad.

And rating it at 1 out seems really extreme from my seat.

- Jim

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
I think check--over-over-over-calling this flop is a distant 3rd behind betting and check-folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. I think check-folding is the best play, but IF the table in general is not respecting his flop bets (or flop bets in general), I don't see why checking and then calling under certain favorable scenarios is worse than betting. Betting's only good if you have a decent chance of getting most of them to fold.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
If it's that close between 3-1 outs (or maybe more if someone would go that far) depending on how you rate the outs, that itself should speak to that call not being bad.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that for many of us it's not so much that the call is *that* bad, it's that a bet is better if you're going to put money in. The button is likely to bet just because he's the button, and people are likely to call because they know he's just betting because he's the button. But a bet from you -- the big bad preflop raiser -- means more, and they're more likely to fold.

-McGee

[BigEndian]

Doh, Erik sorry, I missed the obvious that you pointed out. Maybe there is value to a river bet, but I was too wussy to make it.

- Jim

[House-Lion]

I lean towards that flop-bets are highly dis-respected, but checking this flop through and then calling it seems to weak. There are a truckload of autobetting buttons out there.

I think you should bet out, despite the disrespect someone MIGHT fold.

Rest of hand is interesting and I think you should take the free SD.

[Jimbo720]

I wouldn't raise this preflop with your position. AQo is usually the worst hand I'll raise preflop from EMP.