Theoretical Pre-flop Capping Question

[Ritter]

3/6 LAG

You're UTG w/JJ

You raise.

MP1 3-bets

SB & BB both call.

Do you cap here?

What's the reasoning to yes or no?

Seems to me that although you're probably beat, with three players in (who are all likely to call the fourth bet), the cap is +EV as it amplifies the mistake that 1, 2, or MAYBE all three are making by being in the pot at all. But maybe I'm not thinking about this correctly.

Thoughts?

How about TT or 99?

[thirddan]

If MP has decent raising standards i think that capping is -EV since you are at best even money as any Q,K,A will kill your hand...

[chesspain]

I only cap with JJ, especially out of position in a multiway pot, for deception reasons...meaning that I usually would only call.

[Ritter]

I understand your point, but do not think at BEST you are even money - I think at BEST, you're a small favorite for a favorable flop - if all three opps are on big broadway's (LAG game) the chances of those cards flopping and null/voiding your hand are reduced (admittedly slightly).

[thirddan]

if MP has decent 3bettting standards his hands will include:
AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ (for most opponents)

AA/KK/QQ we are 4-1 dog

JJ we are tied, but need to make it through 5 cards, with them in position and the lead in the hand

AK/AQ we are about even (slight favorite) but we are out of position and will not know where we stand if only one overcard come, an A and we are most likely beat, but a K/Q and we don't know where we are...

[Ritter]

"IF MP HAS DECENT 3BETTING STANDARDS" is part of the equation. I didn't present the question with any reads, but in the absense of reads, I'm talking a typical Party 3/6 LAG game where you could throw TT/99/AJ/AT/Axs into the mix of possible MP hands. Also, what about the two callers? I'd venture that you're comfortably ahead of 2 of the three opps and your cap bet exploits the mistake of the two sub-standard hands and increases your return when you make your hand.

Also, what about the bluffing opportunity that capping presents PARTICULARLY in early position? Let's say MP does have QQ and the flop comes K or A high - good time to bet out on the flop yes?

Please feel free to slap me around if I'm out of line here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Nate tha' Great]

You would definitely want to cap if he has the range of 3-betting hands that you described.

[ QUOTE ]
"IF MP HAS DECENT 3BETTING STANDARDS" is part of the equation. I didn't present the question with any reads, but in the absense of reads, I'm talking a typical Party 3/6 LAG game where you could throw TT/99/AJ/AT/Axs into the mix of possible MP hands. Also, what about the two callers? I'd venture that you're comfortably ahead of 2 of the three opps and your cap bet exploits the mistake of the two sub-standard hands and increases your return when you make your hand.

Also, what about the bluffing opportunity that capping presents PARTICULARLY in early position? Let's say MP does have QQ and the flop comes K or A high - good time to bet out on the flop yes?

Please feel free to slap me around if I'm out of line here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
If MP has decent raising standards i think that capping is -EV since you are at best even money as any Q,K,A will kill your hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two other players in the hand. I don't care if MP will have a slightly better hand than me on the average, provided that the blinds are capable of cold calling with some pretty weak hands.

Assume for example that you have JJ, MP has

AA-99, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AQo,

and the blinds have

TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KJo

Your equity against three opponents is 34%, and a preflop cap would make you around .36 SB (=34% x 4 SB - 1 SB).

[thirddan]

a cap becomes more reasonable as your opponents 3betting hands become weaker and weaker....But against a typical 3/6 Party player i don't think many will 3bet with AT/AX/99, they may raise with them, but when it comes to getting 3bet you are usually against a stonger hand...like most poker situations given no read we can interpret/argue this forever, but it really comes down to MP's 3betting standard...However, with two coldcallers a cap cannot be very -EV if it is -EV at all...

[thirddan]

thanks for running the math Nate...

how much does being out of position against 3 opponents change things? Also how tricky/well your opponents play postflop will make the hand harder to play...

[Ritter]

[ QUOTE ]

There are two other players in the hand. I don't care if MP will have a slightly better hand than me on the average, provided that the blinds are capable of cold calling with some pretty weak hands.

...

Your equity against three opponents is 34%, and a preflop cap would make you around .36 SB (=34% x 4 SB - 1 SB).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure this is what I was trying to say, but didn't know how.

Thanks Nate.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for running the math Nate...

how much does being out of position against 3 opponents change things? Also how tricky/well your opponents play postflop will make the hand harder to play...

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly you'd always rather be playing in position and against bad opponents, but there's enough value in the cap that I don't think it matters very much.