How to appear to be The Maniac

[MisterNatural]

I was watching a guy play on Party and at first I had marked him as a typical manic. I saw him raise T6o utg, bet aggressively each street and then show down with a flopped pair of sixes. Then I noticed that this guy seemed to be respecting the tighter players raises and though he'd go too far in some hands, he wasn't as aggressive and he'd fold more often. After a while, it really looked like he was very aware of the effect he was having on certain players over playing against him and he would usually turn over great hands against them and win huge pots. The pots that they won were tiny and could have been just to keep them in the game.

Maybe he was on a lucky streak, but I was wondering if anyone here could point me to some discussions about playing like this and doing well or just offering some favorite tactics that help get you more action.

[Reef]

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Maybe he was on a lucky streak

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I think this is what it was

[thirddan]

in one of masons poker essay books he talks about how a better image for holdem is to be tight and not reckless...

[Vex]

[ QUOTE ]
in one of masons poker essay books he talks about how a better image for holdem is to be tight and not reckless...

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It seems to me that in order to get paid off well because of your maniac image, you have to have a run of good cards. If you encourage people to call you down or bet into you, thinking you're bluffing too much or overplaying weak hands, then you are going to have to show down some strong hands at the river to take down the big pots. If you spend money to come off like a maniac and the rush doesn't come, you've lost a lot of money in that session.

However, maintaining a tight image is much less expensive and allows you to get paid off without the cards. If you're in the middle of a bad run and are mucking your rags most of the time like you should, you're not giving up anything to look like a rock. Your tight play also gives you some fold equity when you do run a bluff. The actual cards you're being dealt matter much less here.

One approach requires good luck to be successful. The other benefits from good luck but doesn't require it.

[bdk3clash]

Is anyone really having trouble getting paid off when they have good hands? Or when they have mediocre hands?

[A_C_Slater]

It's unlikely this guy was trying to pull off some advanced
"action generating" type game plan. He probably always bets
bottom pair to the river like it's the nuts. The hands
he didn't play past the flop were probably extremely
weak like seven high and such, even maniacs don't chase
or bet seven high.

How many hands were you watching him?

One other thing, even if it was his intent to appear maniacal, he would have to be smart enough to realize that
most online players wouldn't even register his crazy
image in their minds. Some because they're unaware, and others (maybe good players) who are multitabling and not
seeing the showdowns. This approach might work in a tight
"rock garden" live game, but online it has to be a waste
of money.

[Key West]

One of the best ways online to come across as a maniac has nothing to do with your betting patterns. Use the chat room to coffeehouse the place up. Talk like a maniac, tell them about this great pot you won raising with the Brunson T2o. Then, when you do raise UTG with KK, you'll get all the action your little heart desires when that K9s who had you pegged as a maniac catched his K on the flop at the same time you do, and makes his flush when you boat up.

Damn, I tell really good bedtime poker stories. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Popinjay]

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in one of masons poker essay books he talks about how a better image for holdem is to be tight and not reckless...

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b u l l

if people think you are a LAG, you get paid off a million times better. i dont give a crap if people dont let me steal their blinds.

[bernie]

Are you having problems getting action? If not, then who cares?

I usually get plenty of action when im in a hand and im a pretty squeeky player. That said, if they are folding to you alot, check and see just how many hands you could've been put on in that spot. You might not be betting enough hands in a given situation.

There's no reason to enter a session planning on playing wildly for later action when they'd just as soon give you the action anyways. Gauge where you are in recieving action before adjusting. Otherwise, you could be digging out of a nice hole for the session when you didn't have to.

b

[MisterNatural]

I keep hearing that table image online doesn't matter. I'm not really understanding why. I hear the point about multitablers, but I see a lot of players who will come back at the guy who played them aggressively, no matter how sound his play, just to get him back. If they didn't notice him before, they start taking notice and will really overplay the hands with that guy in particular.

I'm not looking to come in with some maniac game plan, but say you're in a situation where you're running just right where it looks like your really trying to bully people around and you can tell people are really playing you way too aggressively trying to get even. Wouldn't you alter your game a little here and there to keep up the maniac image? Say you're up 50BB's but you haven't had any good hands in almost a round. You don't want everyone to think you're tightening up so when you miss your open ended straight draw on the river, you check raise anyways to get 4 people to call an extra bet or maybe even get someone to fold the best hand. You burn 2 BB's to keep everyone nice and loose for the next round.

[bernie]

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Say you're up 50BB's but you haven't had any good hands in almost a round. You don't want everyone to think you're tightening up you check raise anyways to get 4 people to call an extra bet or maybe even get someone to fold the best hand. You burn 2 BB's to keep everyone nice and loose for the next round.

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Not playing any hands in a round is nothing to worry about. Even if you don't play a hand for 4 rounds. (Side note: You may be playing a little too loose up front if it's rare for you to not go an orbit without playing a hand)

I think you missed my point. If you're getting action on your good hands, there's no reason to do an image play. Don't assume just because you haven't seen many hands in a given time that everyone will think you're tight and give you no action. In the example above that you give, it looks like you're getting plenty of action. 4 players to the river is quite a bit. No, i wouldn't waste 2 BBs c/r the river when i know i will lose. There is no valid reason to do it. Your wasting chips doing this. Would you do this if you were down 50BBs?

Ex.

This happens quite a bit. I've folded for a couple hours before, literally, then come in with a raise UTG with KK. I get 4-5 callers. Is there a reason i should be doing an image play when this happens? Let's say everyone folds but maybe 1. This could just be this hand. If there is usually lots of action but you notice it tightens up when you come in, make sure a pattern is there before adjusting. Meaning, more than it happening on 1 or 2 hands. And that it is happening mainly when you're involved.

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I keep hearing that table image online doesn't matter. I'm not really understanding why.

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It matters but the turnover online at a table is pretty high. You're not playing with the same players as often as you would be in a cardroom. Once again, use the action you recieve as a guage to adjust. If you see a guy raising a little more than normal and you see a showdown with him showing crap, yeah, you adjust a bit for him. Most players don't think this far. They'll notice an overaggro, they're much more obvious than just a tight player. They watch where the action is. Many times to the extent of losing track of the tighter players focusing only on the LAG.

Anyways, I've rambled enough

b

[bdk3clash]

"Most players don't think this far. They'll notice an overaggro, they're much more obvious than just a tight player. They watch where the action is. Many times to the extent of losing track of the tighter players focusing only on the LAG."

This is a really good point. In the Small Stakes forum, a lot of people post hands where the action goes something like "maniac raises UTG, I 3-bet with KTs" or whatever. To me, the read on UTG as a maniac is less important than how the rest of the table is reacting to him.

[bernie]

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To me, the read on UTG as a maniac is less important than how the rest of the table is reacting to him.

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Knowing this is very key to maximizing on these tables.

b

[MisterNatural]

Ok. I'm barking up the wrong tree. I appreciate your feedback. I can see I'm taking it too far for online play.

Why don't I try and ask a more open ended question about live play:

S & M recommend playing it straight and not trying to be tricky against weak players. They also say that against strong opponents you'll have to vary your game more and out play them. Say you're playing at a live table with a few strong opponents. What is an image play that you might make in a particular situation to affect play on future hands durring the same session?

[ginko]

Don't listen to these guys. Half of them are rocks or 'weakies'.

There is no cut and dry, black and white poker. Switching strategies is the key to becoming a great player. These guys grind and are to afraid to try anything from the "norm".

I don't know much about limit poker but I do know that in NL image is extremely important. A lot of the players here just agree with each other that a certain style is best because that's all they know.

The best style is one that is constantly changing. 67s for a big raise in utg probably isn't EV+ if your doing it all the time, but it can be very rewarding the few times you do.

[bdk3clash]

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I don't know much about limit poker...

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Shocking.

[bernie]

Again, it depends on how much action you're getting. This usually starts to be noticeable with preflop raises and flop bets, etc...

Raise lighter. If you bet enough hands on the flop, that you should be betting, ou shouldn't really have a problem getting enough action. There is no magical image play that you do that will instantly make them take notice. You want just enough for them to be curious as to what you may/may not have.

If you're at a table with some strong opponents, see if you can isolate the weaker ones. Use the weaker opponents to your advantage against the stronger ones. Be aware when a stronger opponent is in a hand with you. If the table is mostly strong opponents, find another table. There's plenty of action out there.

b

[bernie]

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