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12-06-2001, 09:24 AM
I wonder if anyone is interested in contributing informed comment on some of the issues I've raised here before concerning BigRiver/missisippi seven-card stud, which is seven-card stud with the fourth and fifth cards dealt together, and the last card face up. I'm pretty sure an objective observer would agree that


1. If big-river/mississippi had been invented first then it would always have been the preferred form of seven-card stud, and down-the-rmiver would never have been played, except maybe as a dealer's choice game.


2. If Bigriver had been the established form of seven-card stud in 1970 it would have been the only possible choice to decide the world championship, since it's a brilliant no-limit game and a more accurate test of poker skill than holdem. And holdem was only about 1/100 as popular as 7cs in 1970.


3. that those facts, plus the observation that Down-the river players like Big river a lot when they actually get to play it, and don't miss fourth street and the last-card down once it's gone, lead to the conclusion that Big River will inevitably replace down-the river as the preferred form of seven-card stud. Pit-bosses will also like the several extra hands per hour which are dealt, BTW.


Any takers, or is everyone still ignoring this?

12-06-2001, 12:27 PM
"I wonder if anyone is interested in contributing informed comment on some of the issues I've raised here"


I do. I didn't appreciate your accusations that I was stealing your material to write articles. I think you owe me a public apology.

12-06-2001, 03:26 PM
I think was causes poker preferences to change is action. Hold 'em became dominant because it had Big Money playing it, had a higher velocity, and was unknown-thereby providing more fish.


I think you efforts to promote your games might be better served by creating action, rather than by historical conjecture. Have you tried finding a promoter for a big tournament?

12-06-2001, 10:32 PM
The structure is good but why no one main cardroom spread it?

12-07-2001, 01:53 AM
Daniel is from Perth, Aust. Perth has a casino which has a cardroom. Why not try and get them to spread it?

12-07-2001, 09:37 PM
Mason, I do and have apologised on the original thread for suggesting that you were using my material or ideas. If you wish I will post a new thread which unreservedly withdraws any such imputation, with apologies.


It really was a mistake. I was surprised because I have been using the reasoning seen in your essay to exlain why big-river/mississipi is a better test of skill than down-the-river, and been either ignored or pilloried for it, both here and on RGP. Since you have read at least some of them and remained silent, I presumed that you must disagree, or believe it to be irrelevant. I think there is a big difference between "touting a game" as you put it, and presenting a complete theory of poker game construction based on established principles, plus some crucial insights of my own, only to have it repeatedly deleted or derided. This has been going on for two years now, and to discover that you have no more understanding of what I have been saying than when I started is a bit of a shock.


These issues are controversial because if I am right in what I say, then books titled "seven-card stud" which are only about down-the-river are likely to be out-of-date in the near future. In fact they are out of date now IMO, since the new game has been around for two years. And it is predictable that there will be a lot of books produced which deal with the new games - like Holdem, BigRiver/M7 produces several excellent variations. So in the future you will be using my games and probably also my insights in your books Mason. Since my theories and the game itself are easily testable now, why wait?


Thanks for the replies from Phat Mack, Marco Trevix and "perth boy" (Eh.. paesano, want a game? Give me a bell on 93876065). My cut-and-paste function doesn't work in IExplorer for some reason so I won't quote you, but to answer your points: Phat Mack, yeah, action is the key, and the three-card flop certainly delivers that. So too does the two-card flip to three starting cards, so Big-river encourages more first-round callers than down-the-river.


As for getting the game onto the tournament lists or into casino play, there are often regulatory problems in introducing anew game, depending on local laws: in Austalia it takes about six months and a lot of money to get a new game registered: they haven't even put holdem or omaha on the list yet at the casino here in Perth!! I've written to tournament directors, poker writers, etc etc. but I guess I'm a better inventor than I am promoter or businessman, because there has been almost zero response. I think that there could easily be a rapid change of sentiment, once the all-round advantages of changing to Big-river/mississippi are demonstrated.