Hidden Big Pair-Baby on 3rd

$5-$10 table, $1 ante, $2 bring-in. Average players. They seem to respect the 3rd raise coming from a Big card showing but when involved in a hand they tend to chase even with some gutshot draw . However they are not pretty loose players.


I’m in medium position dealt (J-J)-5, (2 suited but 2 suit cards are out). Bring-in opens with a 2 showing, a Ten calls and there are two overcards behind me, a Queen and an Ace.

My Jacks are totally live and so my kicker 5.


What to do?


Generally speaking, what is your strategy with a buried big pair in a multiway pot and in a shorthanded one?


Thanks for any comments


Marco

Raise in both cases, you want the pot short handed. Besides, plenty of people will call for $5 instead of $2. You'll get some action, but you prefer a short pot.


Jeff

At 5-10 I would be inclined to fold with two big cards after me IF they were held by players who are very likely to call a raise. If they are folders then I would raise. You want to be able to get it heads up of threeway. Against good players I would raise but it is close. At higher limits I would raise most of the time.


Pat

Pat, if I'm playing $1-3, I'm probably just calling with my jacks, 'cause no one will fold and there is no ante. In $1-5 I'm betting though, because if the players are foolish enough to call with just a high card I'm winning anyway. I'll bet again on 4th if I think I'm ahead on the same principle, as long as no one catches good. They'll start folding on 4th and 5th if I keep betting and I can go for a free card somewhere along the way or keep on pumping if I make trips or a second pair. Is this too aggressive? Am I better to just call against the high cards and see what develops because I'm going to have to play against 3, 4 or more players? How about popping just a buck or two on 3rd and 4th to week out the low pairs and longshot draws?

1-3 and 1-5 are games of trapping, while bigger games are more geared towards driving people out. After all, at 1-3, you are only stealing air. You're better off trying to catch people in the middle for multiple bets. BTW MRB, you sound like you are a thinking player and have a mean game; you owe it to yourself to take a shot moving up, believe me it will be worth it. I guarantee you will still be the shark at most 5-10 (and even 10-20) tables, esp. in Connecticut. You won't regret it, just post hands here and play hard.


Jeff

MRB, I am a 1-3 rock at Taj and sometimes Trop. I read both Roy West for LL stud and the Sklansky-Malmuth tome. I would be out of this (J-J)5 hand fast with the Q & A behind. The kicker is too low a/w Roy West, and the bigger cards behind, hey, I'll wait for a better hand. I want to be "selectively aggressive" as per Schoonmaker on page 46 of Poker Digest Nov 30 - Dec 13 issue. Jack Enright at tahur@aol.com

I think you are Ok to call at these levels as long as the pot is not raised. If it is raised then you probably should fold if the raiser will not raise with a hand worse than yours, and that will frequently be the case. With no ante your strategy is much different than it is with an ante. You do not want to be playing a pair of jacks with no kicker vs. a probable higher pair at 1-3 or 1-5 with no ante.


Your strategy of continuing to bet at 1-5 is correct, I think, especially if the opponents boards are not scary. Just watch out for someone betting into you all of a sudden, since that usually means they have a strong hand. Also you basically should always bet the max if you have teh best hand but not a slowplaying hand.


The best advice i can give is to move up as soon as possible. Just being able to intelligently post here is enough reason to move up.


Pat

Following this advice in an unraised pot will cost you dearly. You should call with many live hands that west would not play if the pot is not raised. His advice is good in raised pots but is too tight with no raise. Folding a pair of jacks here with no ante and no raise is a mistake, since your implied odds just to hit trips is worth a call. Plus many players will be starting and calling with hands that have no real shot to make anything but two pair worse than J's up. Plus your hand is hidden with the 5 up as you describe it, which is even more reason to play. Raising is a better play here than folding.


pat

Thank you, Pat. Duly noted. Jack

Thanks for the compliment -- or are you just reeling in another fish for your $5-$10 game? I'll be at Foxwoods from about noon to eight a week from

today, sitting $1-3 and $1-5. I'm also playing in a local $1-2 game for the first time tonight -- not sure if I'll be the fish or the fisherman in that one.

Hello, Marc,

If I see more than one overcard to my big pair,I call the bring-in on 3rd. and if an overcard raises me ,I fold unless I have an overcard kicker--in which case,I call.

If both overcards check to me on 4th,I come out firing. If one bets,I fold.

In a 15-30 or higher game ,I would at least call thru 4Th, Str. with a big live buried pair--even if a a probable higher pair raises me. There is more dead money in the pot and some implied pot odds when you do trip up. Sitting Bull

Hello,Jeff,

I would NOT want you or MRB in my game,if I'm trying to make money. I would want you and him in the game if I trying ot obtain a "degree in poker".


Sitting Bull

Hello, Pat,

Just for the record---Roy says to call with two overcards showing--but to raise with only one of the the overcards showing. Sitting Bull

Just limp with the Ace and King behind you, and decide on Fourth Street how you want to play the hand.


Tom D

Duly noted. Calling is the correct play if not raised generally. Jack's thought was to fold, which cant be right. But if they were folders wouldnt raising be a better play than calling? I just have a pet peeve about "cookbook" style play recommended in books, and have voiced this opinion often. To just call merely because there are two overcards behind you is not the best strategy. Why not teach beginners how to play correctly rather than giving them opening tables in holdem or cookbook play as west provides.


I realize you already know this,so this is not directed at your post, but just generally.


Pat

Ive moved on from 5-10 and I expect to run into you at higher limits soon! do yourself a favor and try the 5-10 game at foxwoods, dont waste your time at lower limits, especially at foxwoods where, if i remember correctly there is an ante at 1-5.


Pat

Your point about the ante in $1-5 (it's .50) being that it makes loose/foolish players more correct in calling early and costs tight/competent players more relative to the bets they can gain when they do play?

Yes, exactly...the 1-5 at Foxwoods takes skill to an absolute minimum in the game. Avoid it at all costs (think, they use the same ante at 5-10).


Jeff

Hello,Pat,

Writers emphasize that their works are "guide lines" to proper winning strategies.

A player needs to absorb these guide lines and then deduce for himself what the best strategy is in a particular situation.

However,in the spot where their are more than one overcard to act,it is incorrect to raise--in a 15-30 and higher limit game,it is suicidal. Sitting Bull