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11-27-2001, 06:36 PM
30-60 I have 9h9s/Ad. Bring in is a 3, next is a Q who calls. I raise and bring in folds, Q calls. It is heads up.


Fourth street I catch Jd, q a blank. I bet and he calls. Fifth street I catch a J. Q catches another blank. I bet and the Q raises. I check call on sixth and seventh and show down my two pair. Q shows rolled queens.


Should I have folded on fifth street when raised? The player with the Q was a decent player but not spectacular and not weak. But I hadnt seen enough of his play to fully evaluate him.


Pat

11-27-2001, 08:04 PM
Hello,Pat,

If your "A" were completely live,you had your opponent convinced that you had split A's. Even if he suspected that you might not have a pair of "A", he would not have raised on 5th.,he would have raised you on 3rd for information. Then if you ckecked 4th., he would bet--knowing that you didn't have what you were representing. Hence,he knew he had your A's beat. By the way,most players slow-play big sets until 5th. St. After he raised you on 5th, you should have folded. Sitting Bull

11-27-2001, 09:02 PM
There's $350 in the pot. If you call the hand down, it's probably going to cost you $180. Your opponent will put in another $120. So you are risking $180 to win $470. That's a little better than 2.5:1 effective odds.


So you have to ask yourself, if I were to play this hand 5 times, would I win more than twice on average?


I don't think you would. He's been playing like has trip queens, and you can't even beat queens up, let alone trips. It looks like you have to make a full house to win, and if you do, he has to NOT improve to a boat of his own.


TRLS

11-27-2001, 09:06 PM
Difficult to do but the decision to fold after being raised is wise.

But i think that all but very expert players fold in that spot. And not folding in that spot is one of my biggest stud mistakes.


Marco

11-28-2001, 01:29 AM
stop and think here a minute . this is 30 60 with good players that dont have to have the nuts to raise.

first your 3rd st. raise does not mean aces it could very well be three big cards or whatever.

fourth st. you catch a scare card and must bet so you still dont have to have anything good. fifth st. you pair jacks and will always bet in this spot, so you could very well have just two jacks.

he could have just queens and be popping you expecting a free card or trying to bluff you somewhere during the hand. or he might have queens up in which case you have 7 cards to hit to beat him and the pot is getting around that to take cards off.

it could very well be an easy fold with the right player. but at 30 60 games if you fold here all the time you will get raised so much on fifth street your head will spin.

11-28-2001, 03:22 AM
Dear Pat,

I'm so glad that you raised this question, because this is the exact situation that gives me more trouble than any other in my game.


Let me share with you a little talk that, I have with myself whenever this question comes up.


"Great what have I stepped into this time, probably hidden trips, he provable came in with a pocket pair and hit his trips on fourth street and has waited till he can get in the double bet to raise"


"But then he might have Queens up and wants to take the pot right now with a "set bluff." Raising with "queens up" into my door Ace, when he has position on me would be either a weak move, or then again it might be a very strong move, but you see this sort of stuff all the time"


"Or he could have a four flush or a four straight with a pair, "God they love to raise with that damned hand," and since he has position on me if he misses and I give him a free card his raises hasn't cost him any thing and if he hits his draw I'm way behind"


"Or he could have had Aces in the hole all this time and read me for a smaller pair in the hole with a "dead'er than hell" Ace, and since I don't have a pair on top, he may feel that he is still in the lead."


"Or he could have trip Queens, but what are the chances of that 424 to 1, give me a break , but with "my luck "any thing could happen. But wait "If he had had trip Queens,and he saw that I hit a brick on fifth, and he has position on me, wouldn't he wait to raise me on sixth? "That's what I would have done."


"Well now what are my chances of getting out of this mess? Well I've got 2 live pair and a 17% chance of filling, and I've got that live Ace and if he doesn't have Aces I've got a 14% chance of making aces up, which might be good enough to win.And if he is raising with Aces or a drawing hand I may still may be in the lead."


To top my decision off, I don't have a read on this guy. He's been playing pretty solid, but for all I know, he could be the best player East of the Mississippi, or then again he could be a tourist making a poor move. "Just because you can afford to play $30-$60 stud doesn't mean that you have the skill to compete at that level.


So here is what I am going to do. "I'll call the raise and if hes got Aces in the hole, or Queens up, or misses his four flush or straight, there is a pretty good chance that he'll check behind me on sixth. But if he was rolled up or rolled out, or hits his draw he'll keep betting, and then I can muck my hand with some confidence as to where I stand" There are 5 bets in the pot already, so this call only has to be correct 1 in 5 times to pay for it's self.


Now Pat, the reason I can recite this soliloquies without even thinking, is because I must have had this conversation with myself a hundred times before.


The key to this problem is that "we don't KNOW the PLAYER" Hopeful in the future when we do know this player better, we will be able to properly muck the hand save the bet. And then we will be able to say "Billy when are you ever going to learn to wait until sixth street to raise with those trips!"


Thank you for bringing up this question. Maybe other forum members will have a better answer for us. And just maybe not All those thoughts pass through my mind during the four seconds before I say, "I Call" But MOST OF THEM DO. Because there is nothing like a fifth street raise to make time "stand still"


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ

11-28-2001, 03:45 AM
Dear Ray,

I've never played at the highest levels of the game, as you have. And I dictated my post with out seeing your's first. I appreciate your sharing with us ,some of the thoughts that would be going through your mind,in these different situations. Each betting level of the game seems to have it's own action characteristics that are unique to it. And it means a lot to have some one share with us that "has played them all."


Most sincerely,


Doc

11-28-2001, 07:04 AM
Calling on 4th with split queens or a split two pair when an AJ has raised and bet is not real good poker IMO, and I don't think most 30-60 players would just call on 3rd AND 4th with a pair of queens.


You're supposed to raise here, because you figure to have the best hand most of the time. If you just call you're paying for your opponent to outdraw you with that big old ace sitting there. And especially if you just have queens, you can't just call if there's a good chance he has no pair.


So I think if you're the AJ hand and the opponent is any good you can all but totally rule out queens or queens up when he hasn't raised on EITHER third or fourth.


That leaves some weaker hands he might be bluffing with, but not a lot because he did call on 3rd with an ace still to act behind him.


Another thing is that he has to know a bluff is unlikely to work except against a very good player capable of making tough laydowns. A typical mid-limit player will hardly ever fold here even with just the jacks and an ace kicker. Pat should be more inclined to put the opponent on a bluff if Pat has a local tough-guy rep, but if the opponent doesn't know him, that argues for the raise being genuine.


TRLS

11-28-2001, 08:29 AM
I've never played $30/60 (or $20/40 for that matter) and have only sat in 3 live stud games (but lots online).


One thing i have noticed though is the players that fold a strong looking hand like AJJ on 5th when something like Qxx raises, end up doing it all night long. I prefer not to make good laydowns, when the whole table knows i have a decent hand for this reason, and particularly not in a heads up pot.


In fact in one side game at the NZ nationals there was a guy who prided himself on his laydowns so much, that i would call him with nothing at all, and then raise him on 5th, still with nothing at all. This bought me 9 pots before he called on 5th once. So then i waited for a great hand, raised him again, he called, and after that i was stealing off him again.


So in conclusion i say call his probable trips down. What it may cost you now is minimal compared to what it probably will cost you later in being bluffed out.

11-28-2001, 10:40 AM
Funny thats basically what I thought!


Thanks for the advice. One aspect of this hand is that I never played that high before and was just taking a shot. So based upon the perceived aggressiveness of players at that level I thought that the combined chances of filling if I was beat plus the chance that I had tehbest hand warranted a call. At the game I normally play I would have easily folded. Thanks for the input. And lets keep up the stud posts!


Pat

11-28-2001, 10:41 AM
Hello, Ray,

Split Q's is not strong enough to slow play in a mulit-way pot. He would have raised to reduce the field if he had the Q's. He would be punishing the other players by playing this hand aggressively. I don't think he would "gamble" by giving a free card by not raising his Q's. Why would he wait until the expensive street to "pop"?

His hand is not that strong. Pat could have very well been playing A's. There is too much evidence against what you just said.


Happy Pokering


Sitting Bull

11-28-2001, 10:49 AM
Hello, Doc,

If you do not know the player,he does not know you. Hence,the probability of his having a strong hand against you goes up.


Sitting Bull

11-28-2001, 11:35 AM
Tough spot. I'm not sure what the right play is. I know I would call him down most of the time just as you did. Most likely he has trips. But he can also have pocket aces or queens up and play it the same way. There is also a good chance that he might have a small set of trips in which case you have a little more outs. And you can't rule out a single pair of queens (or kings) especially if you like to save bets in spots like this (or he might be on tilt or both).


P.S. make it aces up and there is no way I'm folding unless I'm 100% sure. Yeah right like it's going to happen in this game unless you playing with total clowns.

11-28-2001, 11:39 AM
who actually played this hand?

11-28-2001, 12:58 PM
Dear Mr Peterson,

For some one "who has played in only 3 live games" You have made some excellent points.(Watch out you might be a natural at this game, and it's only fair to warn you that Poker is so fascinating that it can be addicting)

The point that you make about the player who would drop Jack,Jack,Ace on fifth is giving away too much is an excellent one. I know a semiprofessional player who told me "Doc when I'm looking at a big pair on third street, you are usually going to be looking at me at the river" Now it's important to note that he is a 15/30 player, which is critical, because his "big pair" is much more valuable than one held by the 3/6 player, who's big pair is often devalued by the looseness of the game at the lower levels.


The next point that you made "I prefer not to make good lay downs" is also an excellent point. But you have to be careful with that concept. My original mentor (Wild Bill M), years ago taught me that "one of the the first things that you have to learn, if you are going to be a winning poker player, is when to make the big laydown" "And the second big concept that you have to learn is when NOT to make that big laydown." And your Jack jack Ace on fifth is a good example.


Point 3 "when the whole table knows I have a big hand' is also a valuable point.

When I was playing at a somewhat lower level, I and several of the other players learned that, I was one of the few players that could make the big laydown. Once the more astute players learned that, a few of them started attacking me just because of that fact.

I even learned through a "double agent" that one player told another player,that "when ever Doc calls a hand for the bring in, you have to automatically plan on raising early in the hand, because he's about the only guy that uses appropriate calling standars. And so if you can knock him out with a bet, its usually worth the exta price, because he's too dangerous to leave in a hand."

That was the day that I started my "counter terrorism project" it consisted of, first identifying those players that would make a raise of that nature, and then using their inappropriate "Doc raise" by rejaming them back. I there by forced them to either make, the now doubly mathematical incorrect call, of fold their hand. (which their lack of ego strength usually prevented them from doing)

Now against those those particular players, they had unknowingly given me a big advantage, not only against them, but also against the rest of the table.


Because by using this counter strategy when the "smart player" would put in his "Doc raise" I would then put in the third bet "raise." And then when the rest of the table usually folded the "wise" player would now suddenly find himself pot stuck playing me heads up, and whispering to himself "Well frig me hard,what in the hell have I just gotten myself into."

(I went into that story in some detail, because the members of this forum ,are likely to be just the type of player good enough to make the big lay downs, and hopefully if they haven't already developed this, or some better counter strategy if they run into this or a similar situation, they might be able to use this counter move)


In summery Mr. Peterson, you have made several excellent points.

Now if you and I can just catch our fair share of cards for once!! But that's a different topic.


Welcome to the poker fraternity.(We named it CAPPA CAPPA CAPPA ,in honor of some of our more enthusiastic brothers, who were lost at "the battle of the river named Show down") Oh! One other thing, in our fraternity, rather than having one "hell week" at the start of your membership. We all (even or most senior brothers) get to have "poker hell weeks" occasionally for the rest of our careers!!!


Most sincerely,

Brother Doc

11-28-2001, 01:29 PM
with an ace behind him many players would not raise on third street with queens and no related kicker. to think not and play with that read is suicide. also the senario i gave is to give a way of thinking not what i thought the hand read out as. all the ways and possibilitites need to be thrown into the pot and then you come out with the best strategy and way to play the hand. he couod very well have queens up or just queens and be making a ply. you find these things going on every hand in stud as the games get bigger. some players dont and play straight forward and of course against someone like that you just fold.

11-28-2001, 01:44 PM
Dear Bull,

Good point, as usual.

Thanks,

Doc

11-28-2001, 07:07 PM

11-28-2001, 07:12 PM

11-28-2001, 07:41 PM
Hello, Lin,

Why would split Q's be intimidated by one overcard behind him? I can understand calling when there is more than one overcard,but not one.

As you said,why would the "Q" player give the "A" an opportunity to improve if he doesn't have split A's? I think the "Q" player would be playing a little too tight with a pair of Q's.

Another good point that you brought out was that the "Q" player was a "stranger". Hence,the more likely that his hand was able to beat A's. It would seem more suicidal for the Q's up to raise the live "A" on 5th and to give "free cards" on 3rd with one pair of Q's. Happy Pokering,


Sitting Bull

11-29-2001, 01:20 AM
I'm somewhat at a loss for words. Thanks very much for strong words of encouragement. I must point out that when I say only 3 live games, I mean 3 live games of Stud.


And as for poker being addictive I have no idea what you are talking about. In fact i waited a full 5 months since i first played holdem until poker became my primary source of income. Last month there was two days I didn't even play one hand. Admittedly I couldn't sleep at night as a result.

11-29-2001, 07:05 PM
Hello,Br. Peterson,

To make a living from playing poker,you need to "love it next to breathing".---Roy West In this sense,it becomes an "addiction".


Br. Sitting Bull