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11-25-2001, 02:37 AM
Hello,players,

Name 5 Omaha8 hands that you would call a double raise pre-flop. Sitting Bull

11-25-2001, 04:12 AM
AA23 suited up


AA2x A & 2 or x suited


the second one should cover more then 3 hands so there is your four

11-25-2001, 04:32 AM
Sitting Bull - Depends on your opponents, the game, your position, and probably some other variables that don't immediately come to mind.


To understand raises and double raises, you have to understand how a raiser or double raiser might be thinking. Why did the original raiser raise? Why did the re-raiser re-raise?


Different opponents double-raise for different reasons. For example, if I had a good one-on-one hand I might make a double raise if I thought doing so would get me one-on-one with the original raiser. On the other hand, in a wild game with a lot of pre-flop raising, where people normally cold-called double raises, I might make a double raise for value, fully expecting that no one would fold to it. I believe many of my opponents are playing in a similar fashion.


I think there are no specific hands, except premium hands, that would always justify calling double raises. Are you asking us to list five premium hands? O.K. How about:


A-A-2-3 double suited,

A-A-2-4 double suited,

A-K-2-3 double suited,

A-2-3-4 suited, and

A-2-3-5 suited.


But if you fold every other hand to a double raise you're going to get bamboozled a lot.


Buzz

11-25-2001, 03:17 PM
Buzz, is there some reason you left off the premium high hands, like AAKK double suited?


btw, I've been in many games (fortunately) where a double raise only means a someone has a lot of chips.


Another interesting question is when do you make it 3 bets.

11-25-2001, 05:49 PM
For me add AAdouble suited with high cards as well. AKKQ AKQQ AKQJ AKJT, KQJT, AKQT etc preferably with a suited Ace.


Most players in the games i play tend to characterise themselves when raising by only doing it with pocket aces or A2. But they will then cap it with a low only draw, or continue through capped betting if only one low card flops. So rather than avoiding double raised pots, i actually look for a good reason to play them, since the opponents generally play draws terribly postflop and pay you off big.

11-25-2001, 08:55 PM

11-25-2001, 09:03 PM
Fred - "... is there some reason you left off the premium high hands, like AAKK double suited?"


Sitting Bull asked for five hands. I gave him five hands. I think AAKK double suited is also a very fine starting hand, one of my favorites, even though it has no shot at low.


"btw, I've been in many games (fortunately) where a double raise only means a someone has a lot of chips."


It's the time of the year for you to count your blessings.


I often wonder what people are thinking when I can't make sense out of their raises. This is going to sound strange, but sometimes I think it's just a macho thing with some raisers. Maybe some players somehow have a need to show dominance, like gorillas beating their chests in the jungle. I wonder if some players raise simply in an attempt to intimidate the rest of the players at the table and thus show dominance at the poker table.


"Another interesting question is when do you make it 3 bets."


Sometimes when it seems someone else will cap it, and when I am planning to see the flop anyway, I will cap it myself.


Or, if I was the original raiser and raised for value, I will usually cap it after someone has re-raised. (On the other hand if I originally raised hoping to limit the field, I'll probably just call).


Buzz

11-25-2001, 09:12 PM
Hello,Shark,

If one's objective in Omaha8 is to scoop the pot,he will be looking for potential scooping hands. AAKK is usually not a scooping hand.

This idea also applies to other hands with all big cards. Buzz's hands are premimun scooping hands. Sitting Bull

11-25-2001, 09:15 PM

11-25-2001, 09:38 PM
I bet to differ: AAKKss is a great scooping hand:


quads, full houses, Ace high flushes with no low, or when no one makes a low, broadway hands. Even a big set holds up occasionally, and you will sometimes just walk into a pot with 2 pair.

11-26-2001, 01:14 AM
Hello, Shark,

Is it then correct to assume that a low occurs less than 50% in the long run and that Omaha8 players concentrate more on a high hand than a low one? Sitting Bull

11-26-2001, 10:51 PM
Shark - "AAKKss is a great scooping hand"


True. However, approximately three hands out of five, when AAKKss wins, it is for the high half of the pot only. Therefore, AAKKss splits more than it scoops.


Buzz

11-27-2001, 01:28 AM
Sitting Bull - "Is it then correct to assume that a low occurs less than 50% in the long run and that Omaha8 players concentrate more on a high hand than a low one?"


No and no.


If you are watching an Omaha-8 game from the rail, low occurs about three complete hands out of five (60.01%). The extent to which low is possible, if you are sitting in the game, depends on the cards you hold, but, pre-flop, is always theoretically greater than 50%. Off the top of my head I think it's something like 55% when you're holding four unpaired low cards. As I recall from calculations I made some time ago, when you hold four high cards, low is possible roughly 69% of the time. Thus, depending on your own cards, low is possible for complete (five card) boards between 55% and 69% of the time. Hope that helps you. Keep in mind that I am not a mathematician.


As to Omaha-8 players concentrating more on high hands than low hands, in my experience some Omaha-8 players seem to concentrate on low hands, others concentrate on high hands, while others concentrate on possible scoopers. I am not able to figure out what some Omaha-8 players concentrate on - often they make no sense to me. They seem to concentrate on nothing at all. But then that is how I often try to appear to my own opponents, especially the good ones.


I'll swear I posted a similar response a couple of hours ago to this post of yours, but, since I don't see it, I have re-written and will post this again. My apologies if two responses to your post end up being posted.


Buzz

11-27-2001, 08:49 PM
Very pleasant response, ty, saved me from myself

11-27-2001, 08:53 PM
Just out of curiosity (I should know but I don't), what is the scopping percentage of AA23ss?

11-27-2001, 11:19 PM
Funny i was under the impression that lows occur less than 50% of the time. I know for a fact if you have AA23ss or As234 or similar hand then the odds of a low being made are one in every 48 hands.

11-28-2001, 12:15 AM
Pete - "Funny i was under the impression that lows occur less than 50% of the time. I know for a fact if you have AA23ss or As234 or similar hand then the odds of a low being made are one in every 48 hands."


Nope.


Just to show yourself you are wrong, try this: Take A-2-3-4 out of a deck, thoroughly shuffle the rest of the deck and deal out five cards to represent a complete board. Then deal out another five cards to represent another complete board. I think you'll find that the odds of low are much greater than one in every 48 hands. (I think you'll find that low occurs greater than half the time - if you do it enough, you should zero in on the theoretical frequency, 55%).


We visited New Zealand a few years ago. Beautiful country with wonderful, warm, friendly, honest people.


Left a pair of binoculars in a rental car on the North Island, and gave them up for lost. Glory be, they appeared a couple of days later at the front desk of the place we were staying (The Hermitage) on the South Island, courtesy of Air New Zealand. I don't even know how they knew where we were staying, let alone that the binoculars were mine. There was no I.D. on them. Alas, something like that just doesn't happen much in L.A.


Buzz

11-28-2001, 05:35 AM
Thanks very much Buzz. What i should have siad though is that when I have AA23ss or A234 then the low comes in 1 in 48 times.


In fact I was playing an online 400 player pot limit Omaha 8 tournament the other day, and was down to 12 players when i got allin preflop headsup with AA23ss. Needless to say i got whooped by 6789 which somehow managed to get that far thinking that was a good hand.

11-29-2001, 07:37 PM
Fred - "Just out of curiosity (I should know but I don't), what is the scopping percentage of AA23ss?"


I was hoping someone else might satisfy your curiosity, Fred. I presently have a Mac computer, and even with Virtual PC™ 2.1.2, I can't run simulations using Wilson's software. I presume I also wouldn't be able to run Poker Probe, which I understand is DOS based.


A while back I searched the r.g.p. archives (key words to use in this search would be: Omaha simulation). Pretty interesting stuff there - even some of my own posts under a different pseudoname. As I recall, there was only one simulation result posted for AA23ss that gave breakdown details, and that was for only 1000 trials, which is probably not enough.


I somehow don't feel right re-posting someone else's work from another place here on 2+2. However, I feel all right telling you the value, as I recall, amounted to about one scoop hand out of eight for AA23ss, which is very high relative to other Omaha-8 starting hands.


The result from Wilson software, of course, would depend on how you set your parameters. As I recall, the result posted on r.g.p. was gotten from Poker Probe and was for ten handed with all hands staying to the showdown.


Hope that helps.


Buzz