Stud river decision: Value reraise or crying call?

I finally got to play a few 1-5 stud hands this weekend and mulled over a river decision for quite a while. I've had this situation quite a few times so the rest of you stud players must have too.


7th street boards


Me: (3c,3h)8c,3s,Jh,8s(6d)


Opponent (x,x)Td,2h,7c,Kd(x)


I've been betting the whole time. On 4th street, the high board was on my immediate left. He bet $3. Several players called and I raised the full $5. On fifth street, I was checked to and bet $5. On 6th street, I paired my doorcard, bet $5 and was called by just one opponent. On the river, I value bet my 3s full of 8s. And I get raised! This one opponent has called all the way despite my significant show of strength.


So what am I up against? Has he been calling all the way with a hand like Ts and 7s and made a full house on the river?


I'm not considering a fold. Do you think I'm behind and should just call on the river? Or should I 3-bet for value with my tiny full house?

Dynasty,


Without a description of your opponents and a listing of some of the other cards that were out I think just calling is fine here.


At most you just cost yourself one bet by not re-raising, whereas if you raise and are beat it will cost two more. If this is the type of opponent who will go ALL the way with a draw on third, you will get that one additional bet back shortly anyway.


Later,


CJ

For my money, I can only call in this spot.


Tom D

Given his board you have to rule out everything except two pair or trips. Unless he's the type to chase a three flush to sixth street, what else can he have? Few players at low limit will bluff by reraising, so I'd definitely just call here, with the hope of beating trips but a feeling I'm against a house that got filled on the river.

I would call here. Whatever he has, three of his five cards are face down and I'm not very good at seeing through the backs of the cards. There's a chance he has a straight or flush, or even just trips, but it's not enough of a chance to risk getting reraised.

Hello,Dynasty,

If you have been playing with your opponent for at least 1Hr.,you should have an approximate idea of his playing style.

You should also have some idea what some of his 3-card starting hands were.

Whether you should call or re-raise depends on how you perceive

your opponent's level of sophistication:below-average,average,above average,good,very good,expert.

If I evaluated my opponent to be a below-average or average player,I would re-raise;a good player would not have re-raised you unless he was able to beat your boat;a very good player or an expert might re-raise you if he thinks you are capable of folding a small boat;if the latter doesn't think you will fold your boat and re-raises you,you are beat;if the player is above-average and re-raises you,you lose (Folding your boat is an option) Sitting Bull

Most of the time I concur with everyone else, just call. In some situations against some opponents, I 3 bet and fold if raised again.

I should have known better than to go directly to the river. You don't have all the information you need.


The opponent: I don't know him and have only been playing with him for about 15 minutes. However, it's safe to assume he's a tourist (in Vegas).


The cards: His cards are mostly live, including the Ts, 2s & 7s (for pairs/trips), 6s & 8s (for straight), and diamonds (for flush). Ks are dead.

Hello,DeadBart,

If you do not plan on calling the final raise,you should not 3-bet.


Sitting Bull

Hello,Dynasty,

If you do not have a handle of your opponent's style,just call.


Sitting Bull

7th street boards


Me: (3c,3h)8c,3s,Jh,8s(6d)


Opponent (x,x)Td,2h,7c,Kd(x)


The key to my decision was that he only checked and called until the river. With my non-threatening board, I expected he would have bet a hand like Tens-up since he acted before me on 4th, 5th, and 6th streets. So I put him on a starting hand of T98 or three diamonds.


I re-raised and got called. My full house beat a diamond flush.


It's a tough situation but extracting extra bets when your ahead is something we all need to do better.


Nobody else would have 3-bet?

As I said in my earlier post, I would not have three bet. But I congratulate you on a very good read and the guts to act on it.

If you're good enough to put him on a diamond flush when he doesn't catch the FOURTH diamond until SIXTH street, then you're playing way too low! /images/smile.gif


Linda

Dynasty,


Like I stated in my post above, If this person is stupid enough to go all the way with a draw ( and not even get the 4th diamond till 6th street ) and you didn't re-raise the river. You would soon get that 1 missed bet back due to his sheer stupidity.


I think against even halfway decent players when you have already raised and then paired your doorcard, and opponent is still calling, then raises you on the river... you would have been beaten by a bigger full-house. I would say at least %70 of the time. ( maybe less considering it was a small limit table )


Anywho.. I wasn't there and you got the correct read.

Congrats on the win..


Later,


CJ

A wise person (no clue who, I just know that he/she had to be wise) once wrote somewhere "assume they are idiots until proven otherwise".


This is yet another example.


I live by that statement and rarely does it come back to haunt me, because frankly, most players *are* idiots.


I think this is a case where you can reraise and fold to a 4 bet.


I love the analysis that he would have done SOMETHING besides checking and calling if he had 2 pair or rolled up trips early in the hand. Exceptional hand reading of the typical tourist who simply is there to play and isn't gonna lay down a draw til its dead.


Nice hand, sweet raise.

It will take some logic backing up your opinion before I will be swayed.


Some predictable players will make one raise semi-liberally but never 4 bet without a very very big hand. I'd say a lot more play like this than you would think in fact. If this is in fact the case, a 3-bet can make sense.

Havent looked at the results yet, so I hope I am not totally wrong here but I would reraise in 1-5 EVERY time. Most of these players have no idea how to read hands and will reraise with no thought whatsoever about the strength of your hand. Why cant he just have a flush or broadway? Hope you won it.


Pat

Hello,Clarkmeister,

This "wise" person seems cynical to me.

Just because a person is playing poker to have a little fun doesn't classify him as an "idiot". He might be an expert in several other fields.


Sitting Bull

"I think against even halfway decent players when you have already raised and then paired your doorcard, and opponent is still calling, then raises you on the river... you would have been beaten by a bigger full-house. I would say at least %70 of the time. ( maybe less considering it was a small limit table )"


I agree. In fact, I thought for about 7-10 seconds before making the 3-bet because of this possibility. The two key factors were (1) he never bet into me (with 2-pair or trips) when my board looked weak and (2) the diamonds on 3rd and 6th streets stood out when he when he called on 6th street.


It was a VERY marginal 3-bet.

LMAO, OK. Fair enough. Let me substitute "poor players" for "idiot" in the phrase "assume they are idiots until proven otherwise".

Hello,Clarkmeister,

I haven't had any experience playing 10-20 to 20-40 stud.

Is the "fishing" good enough in these games for an above-average1-5 stud player to beat on a regular basis? I'm not talking about a good 1-5 player,but an above -average one.


Sitting Bull

Larry,


Honestly, I wouldn't know. I am primarily a hold'em player and haven't played any stud above $2-10 spread limit.


To draw a comparison, there are many $4-8 hold'em players I have played against who could handle $10-20 and higher without a ton of difficulty.