Playing a low pair with a good kicker

i'm sort of a beginner, so forgive me if this is a silly question...

suppose i'm playing seven card stud and im dealt a low pair (lets say 4's) and a good kicker (lets say a king or an ace)

suppose my door card is one of the 4's

the low card brings it in and a queen raises, then it comes to me

we'll assume that the queen is the highest card showing and that its very likely that the player has a pair of queens

also assume that my cards are live

is it worthwhile to raise and try to make it heads up with the queen, or should i go ahead and fold, given that my chances of winning are less than %50?

does it make a difference whether i have a two flush or whether my kicker is a king or an ace?

any advice would be appreciated

The answer depends on the limit you are playing. At 1-5 or lower it is a fold. At 5-10 it is usually a reraise unless the game is loose. Anything higher generally you shoudl reraise if it will get it heads up. In this situation reraising is better than calling (so is folding by the way, but in most games reraising is the best play). If you have a twoflush with an A or K kicker it is a definite reraise in any game above 1-5.


The size of your kicker makes a big difference. With an A or K kicker you should be more inclined to reraise than with a Q kicker even if the Q is the highest card onboard. With a kicker that is not the highest card on board generally you should fold unless playing situations dictate, but that is more complex than teh answer you are looking for.


This question has been discussed a lot recently on this forum and you might find the other posts helpful.


Pat

Hello,Drew,

I've been a teacher for a long time. I always told my students that there is no such thing as a stupid question. NEVER be afraid to ask any question---NO MATTER HOW STUPID THE QUESTION SEEMS TO BE! Even if you are the subject of laughter and ridicule,NEVER be afraid to ask a question!

************************************************** ************************************************** *******************************Now to shed some light on your question*


In a 15-30 or higher limit game ,raise to reduce the field; in a low-limit no-ante game,it's o.k. to call or to fold==do not raise.

If you do not improve on 4th,fold.


Larry"Sitting Bull"Duplessis

Hi Drew


At limits $15-$30 or above it is a mandatory re-raise to attempt to get the pot heads-up. This is the right play for these higher games simply b/c the ante is proportionally larger than the lower games.


Ex. When your opponent bets $10 in a $10-$20 game (with a standard $1 ante) he is raising 10 times the size of the ante. In a $15-$30 game when your opponent bets $15 he ia raising 7 1/2 times the ante. So playing $15-$30 with more starting $ in the pot, you play more hands.


So in my opinion the answer to your question is this:


With a 10% ante or no ante ( limits $1-$5 through $10-$20 typically ) fold if your opponent is known for having what he represents. There's not enough $ in the pot for you to be playing heads-up as a dog. If you think there's a good chance your opponent dosen't have Queens it's a clear call, and usually not a raise. If this is the case then I'd call on 4th St. , look at my fifth St. card, and if I didn't improve or my opponent did, toss my hand if my opponent(s) continues to bet into me. You don't want to be chasing on the expensive streets.


Knock'em dead


Mike

Hi Drew,


If you have something like Ac4d/4s and a Q raises in the circumstances described, a reraise is definitely in order if it will get the field down to 2-3 players (including yourself). Otherwise consider throwing the hand away. Stud is not a game where you should call a lot on third street with pairs, even though you'll see everybody else doing it. Tend towards raising or folding when you have a pair, and your game will probably improve dramatically. Of course, reraise if there's a chance the Q is making a late-position steal raise and doesn't have a pair.


Having a live ace is worth a lot more than having a live king. In fact, a lot of very good players would almost never play a hand like Kc4d/4h after a queen raises, except to pick off a steal. Aces up can't be beaten except by trips or better, but kings up can be beaten by aces up. Even if you don't pair up your ace, just having one makes it considerably less likely that anyone else will make a pair of aces. In stud you always want to know where the aces are.


Having a 2-flush helps only fractionally. Realize that Ac4c/4d8c is just a weak pair with a big kicker. You still have to catch two clubs in the last three cards to make a flush, and the odds are pretty long. It's a mistake to think the third club has added much value to your hand. Ac4d/4c8c is somewhat better because if you catch another open club your opponent may decide it's too risky to continue on with just a bare pair.


Linda

Drew,


There is actually a lot to consider with this question.


If I were playing 1-5 or 3-6 with a 50 cent ante or 6-12 with a dollar ante I would re-raise in an attempt to get it heads-up almost every time. ( probably 4-8 with a 50 cent ante also )


If I were playing 1-3 or 1-5 with no ante I would call if I could anticipate a multiway pot otherwise I would fold. I call if I can anticipate a multiway pot because these games are usually filled with weak players who go way to far with their hands and pay off more than they should. There is no reason to play the hand heads-up in this game because there is no antes.


Now if that particular opponent doesn't raise with hands he represents an argument could be made for reraising but most often at the lower limits people aren't that creative.


Playing that situation at the 5-10 or 10-20 limits with the standard 1/10 antes is where I like to think of this situation as 'tricky'. For a beginner I would be safe in recommending folding. There are situations where I would fold,call,and re-raise.


So that is what I would do and recommend..

To answer some of your other questions..


An A kicker is always better than a K kicker assuming live cards.

Having a two flush ( especially in the hole ) is MUCH better than not having one. This fact alone makes many more hands playable.


Hoped this helped,


Later,


CJ

One by one:


If you are in a game with any kind of significant ante (15-30 with a $2 ante and similar or higher proportioned antes):


Raise, to knock out the third player(s) most of the time. The remainder of the time, I would usually call, unless the raiser is a good player or unless there are higher (live) doorcards yet to act(you have 4s with a king and there is a live ace behind you.)


If you have a two flush that is live, I would be more inclined to call than normally, but I would still raise most of the time, particularly if you think that the Q was on a steal anyway. . .


It does not matter if you have an Ace or a King as your hidden high kicker.


In lower ante games (10-20 with a $1 ante and lower proportions)


I would call more than I would raise. . . I would fold a little more often. I still wouldn't care what my high kicker was.

Hello,Mike,

In general, I agree with your analysis.However,it's always important to obtain a handle of your apponent's style. If the raise comes from a loose-agressive type in a 10-20 game,I would re-raise immediately to obtain information. If your opponent dose not come back at you and checks 4th ,I would bet out.

In a 1-5 0r 5-10 game,I would simply fold.


Happy pokering,


Sitting Bull

Hello,Lin,

Please excuse the previous "nothing post'.

If a player in a 10-20 or high limit game never plays a small pair with an overcard like "K" on 3rd.,isn't he playing too tight for the ante game? Even if an under card raises?

How can a player be a "very good player" and play like this?

Confused about the definition of a "very good player".


Sitting Bull

Why is the 5-10 different from the 10-20?

> If you do not improve on 4th, fold.


I believe that in 7CS4AP, they recommend going to the river unless your opponent shows improvement. On fourth street, you're getting immediate pot odds of something like 6:1 (assuming it's heads-up) on your call. You can't fold in this spot, can you?

Here's what I originally wrote:


...a lot of very good players would almost never play a hand like Kc4d/4h after a queen raises, except to pick off a steal...


To clarify, I was talking about the specific situation where (a) you have a very small split pair and your non-ace overcard kicker is in the hole; (b) a big door card raises in a situation where it's probably NOT a steal; (c) you can't see any aces and none have folded out.


The problem here is that you can get into reverse-implied-odds situations rather easily:


You: K4/4K9

Opponent: Q2A


On 3rd, opponent raises, you reraise to isolate, the rest fold irrelevant cards, Q calls. On 4th you bet and opponent calls. On 5th your opponent bets. Unless you have a very good read on your opponent, you are likely to be in a fairly classic reverse-implied-odds situation here.


Obviously if a couple of aces have folded out, the A on 5th street is not anywhere near so scary and you can keep playing.


44/K is better. Now you have a chance to win the pot quickly if your K pairs up (you can make the double bet if you pair up on fourth), and you have great implied odds if you catch a 4. But K4/4K is too weak a board to scare people off, making it vulnerable to redraws even if you have the best hand at the moment, and meaning that you will often put in 2 or 3 big bets to find out that you've lost. And K4/44 is usually an action killer, producing a small pot if you win but costing you a lot when you lose.


As for the effect of antes: you shouldn't play looser JUST because the ante is higher. You have to consider the whole game texture. The higher antes in higher-limit games are meant to compensate for what is presumed to be tighter and better play. So except for certain really wild structures, you often don't get any better pot odds than you would in a lower game with smaller relative antes. Also, as the limits/antes increase, you are often playing in games that are more aggressive on 3rd and tighter on the expensive streets, so your implied and effective odds aren't so good. You have to consider all of this, and not just the ante size.

Hello,Andy,

Sklansky and RayZee's book is for 15-30 and higher limit.

But for low and low middle limit games, you are trying to play--not raise on 3rd.

According to Roy West,it's O.K. for the "big kids to ram and jam " on 3rd. But "for our purpose,conservatism works better".


Sitting Bull

Hello, Lin,

Thanks for clarifying the difference in plays between a small or medium buried pair with a big kicker and a split small or medium pair with a big kicker in the hole.


Happy pokering,


Sitting Bull

While you might be right that you can get into trouble with this hand that does not mean it is not worth playing. it is still a profitable hand and if you do not play it you will not win as much as you should. I would play the 4K4 everytime if I can get it heads up against a pair of queens. Keep in mind that YOU may catch as ace as well and this will be a scare card. Against a weak player there are many situations where your hand plays better, especially since if you opponent makes an open pair you can fold if you know he has Q's; meanwhile your opponent can have no such certaintly about your hand. Plus if you do not make two pair you do not have to call the river, and against many players you will be able to get a free card on fifth street by raising on fourth street.


pat