Check Blind or Look?

Here's a following hand I played last night at the Taj Mahal:


The game is $30-$60 stud being played seven handed. The game is good with two loose/sorry players in it. The 3c brings it in to my right, I raise with a split pair of sevens and a live ace kicker, one of the two sorry players calls with a ten up, and the bring-in folds.


On 4th st. I catch a King and my opponent catches an off-suit jack. I bet, he calls. Now on 5th st. I pair my door card giving me trip sevens while my opponent catches a Queen. Now our boards are: Me 7 A 7 K 7 Him ? ? T J Q


I bet and to my suprise my opponent makes it $120. I call what appears to be a made strait. On 6th st. we both catch blanks. Since I figure my opponent will bet if I don't, I bet the $60 and he of course calls.


7th street: Now here's where I think I may have messed up. My opponent has an almost definite strait. With one card left I'm a dog to win the hand by making a full-boat, even though all of my pair cards are live. I look at my river card which didn't fill me and checked. My opponent bet and I called and lost to his Queen high strait.


What I think I did wrong was look at my river card (costing myself an extra $60) instead of checking blind to my opponent. I have a strong feeling he would have checked behind me if he haden't of seen me look at my river card and then check to him. If I'm a dog to win the hand by filling-up and think my opponent will check behind me with his made strait, if I check blind, its the correct play right? Well....at least now I know to check-raise him when I do make my hands. Open to comments.


P.S. How many people think a call was even justified on the river?


Mike

Hello, Mike,

I remembered one time I suspected that my opponent had A's full

while I had J's full. He bet 7th and I called "in the dark".

************************************************** ************************************************** ****************************************Well,I caught another J ,giving me quads!***************I cried all the way home that day!**************** NEVER CHECK IN THE DARK****YOU LOSE YOUR OPTIONS

WHEN YOU DO.


Most of the time,I would have called the last bet==unless my opponent is very predictable.


Happy pokering,


Sitting Bull

if he had a made straight why didnt he raise sixth street? He may have caught it on the river, but if he is a "sorry' player he may have had it and just misplayed it; or he was scared of you betting into him, in which case you played it well.


As far as looking at your river card, I doubt it would have made a difference. Surely if you filled you would check anyway, only you would raise. Having the ability to later checkraise him more than makes up for this one hand,which I dont think you misplayed anyway.


pat

I always look at my last card prior to betting or checking. The difference is that I have already decided what action I am going to take prior to looking.


As long as you are willing to check some made hands and get a check raise in, it shouldn't matter whether you check after looking.


To me, I am more likely to bet into a player who has checked blind. He has told me he is drawing! He is a dog to catch and will pay me off more times than it costs me a double bet on the river. And against some players, you can throw your hand away for a checkraise.


Also if you bet every time you have made your hand and check every time you miss, you are going to get bombarded by chips by the better players.

When I get my river card, I always mix it in with the other two and look at all three together. This ensures that there isn't anything I've overlooked (This is a carry-over from playing high-low in home games where I'd occasionally forget about low possibilities if I'd already made a flush, etc.). By doing this consistently, I don't give anything away when I fail to bet or check blind. I think that my more observant opponents (both of them) realize that I do this, and I suspect that people occasionally draw erroneous conclusions when I look at my river card before acting. On the hand in question, are you quite sure that the live one had the straight in five? He didn't raise on sixth street after all. Could the fifth street raise have been made with something like two pair or a pair with a straight draw? I pay off the river every time. There is a reasonable chance that he has something other than a straight, and it's a big mistake if you fold the best hand. You've got to be about 90% sure that you're beaten, and I'm rarely 90% sure of anything.

Dear Mike,

You bring up and several interesting questions. As you know in poker seldom are answers black and white, most of the time they are gray and there are several acceptable ways to play a hand.


My approach on 6th street would have been to have given your opponent a check on 6th street, since he has already declared that he has a made straight. If he doesn't come out with a bet when I check, I don't considering it as losing a bet, since he has already given you an extra large bet on 5th street. The problem here is that you are not against a solid player, so you don't know what he will do. Some times the weak player will raise you again and then you have to call with your set draw, which you obviously don't want to do. If he had been a solid player and you bet into him after his raise, he is going to read you for a fullhouse and will probably call you down.


You next question is even more interesting. I use to occasionally play my house draw blind, but I never do that any more. The reason is that if you always check your last down card, even when you already have a made house, your opponents can't ever get a read on your hand. Most of the time that when I find that I have made my house a house against a weak player, I will beat out. This prevents your missing a bet, and the weak player will almost always call. But the amazing thing to me, is how often a weak player will raise you back, when you have a made house that he can't possibly beat, and then yo can get in an extra bet with your reraise.


Other times ( 3%, or 1/30 hands with a live set card) you will hit your quads. Now if your opponent simultaneously hits a big house you can often get 5 bets out of the hand. You bet, he raises with his big house, you reraises, he reraises you (because he reads you for misplaying your hand or misreading his hand), and then you can get in your 5th bet

If I am against a somewhat better player with my made house, I'll check and when he bets I can get in my extra bet with my check raise. Of course if you find that you have not filled up, by looking at your 7th street card, you can check to the weak player or go for the semibluff against the better player, an see if he'll lay down his hand.


This move usually has to win only 1 in 7 hands to make a profit. If he reraises you can drop the hand. And many times even if you only have a set, you would still have wanted to call. So by putting in the bet first, you may get him to lay down a better hand, and you often haven't lost any thing.


On your final question I would drop the hand on the river if I had been against a weak player, and I would make the "long call" if I was against a stronger player that might go for the bluff.


So in summery, by always looking at my river card my opponents can't get a read on my hand, and many times I can play the hand in such a way as to get extra bets from it. Thank you for raising this interesting question.


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ

Mike,


Never ever check blind. Doing so is weak and usually spells out ' I am weak '. What if you checked blind, actually filled up, and your opponent checked? You have cost yourself bets.


I SOMETIMES ( almost never ) 'check blind' with a MADE hand KNOWING someone will bet in a particular situation.. then I will checkraise, but I do this VERY RARELY.


Basically just always look at your cards and shuffle em' up.

Then either bet or check..


Later,


CJ


P.S.


On the river you have to call in that instance..

One thing that I normally do when a player checks blind is I usually check. This way if he is bluffing I will catch him, and believe it or not I have played against players who will bluff after checking blind and If I beat the hand he is representing I can raise. But it is an interesting question aboutwhat to do.


Pat

Hello, Andy,

If you pay the river off all tihe time,your observant opponents will bet if they think they have the best hand In the long run,you will be losing a lot of money--although the cost may seem small if you think in terms of "a single session".

Try to understand how your opponents play--if they bluff a lot ,tend to call more;if they rarely bluff,tend to fold more.


Larry"Sitting Bull"Duplessis

Hello,Doc,

If you check in the dark,you do not know what you have,so how can your opponent read your hand? If you do look at your last card, your opponent might observe a "tell".

Isn't part of the art and science of hand-reading contingent on whether or not a player knows what he himself has ?


Larry "Sitting Bull" Duplessis

Sear CJ,

You make an excellent point on shuffling your down cards. Poker is a game of "little advantages". For some reason over the years I got in the habit of not shuffling on the river, and I have to work at reminding myself. Thanks for making that small but important point.


Sincerely ,Doc

Dear Sitting Bull,

You bring up a good point. If you look at your cards on the river, "you might give away a tell." Over the years I have made a conscious effort to develop a table technique, so that I don't think I give away any tells.,( at least not any that could be picked up but other than an excellent player). One reason that I feel that way is because ,I have had excellent players study my game and look for tells that I might make .


One of the things that has been a big help to me over the years was to find good friends, whose games I really respected and then to develop a working relationship with them. I don't mean working in that we would work at beating the other players .(I have never had a close friend that would ever cheat a player in any way) I mean "work" in the fact that we would alkalize the game together and then challenge each other to find ways to improve our games.


I think that when you alkalize the game with a "colleague" at your Casino you loose a little ,since you share your approach and your strategy ,but the 3 players that I have worked with over the years ,have been such excellent players that I don't think that I have given much away. And the benefits of constantly working on my game with another player have provided benefits that have far out way any possible looses. one of the things my "study partners" and I have always done is to study each others games ,and look for tells. For example if we are able to detect a tell in one another's game, we tell one another so that we can loose it. Or if we see an action by each other,or by any of the other players, during a game, that we feel might have been played better, we discuss it at our next "study session" If you find a player that you really like and really respect as player, you might consider inviting him to study together.Players of this quality are few and far between, but if you find one ,he or she can really help keep your study of the game enjoyable.

The first player that I ever worked with was one of the finest players and finest people that I have had the privilege to know. His recent death was a great loss, but the hours we spent together sharing the joys and pains of our game are something that I will always treasure.


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ


PS One of the great benefits of this forum is that it is like a giant study group.

Hi Larry,


My opponents tend to bet when they think they have the best hand anyway. /images/smile.gif I don't mean that I pay off every river bet on every hand. Given the action, and Mike's characterization of his opponent, I do pay off that river bet with my three sevens every time. As I said, I'm rarely 90% sure of anything, and that's especially true against a poor player. If I'm sure I'm against a straight, I lay it down, but I just couldn't be sure in this case. If you make a habit of laying down good hands in spots like this, your observant opponents are going to bluff you out a lot more than you would like them to. Nobody is getting rich by laying down good hands for one more bet in decent-sized pots.

Hello,Doc,

If you do not shuffle up on the river,your observant players will be able to easily put you on a 3rd St. playing hand.


Sitting Bull

Hello,Doc,

It's refreshing to be able to converse with so much knowledgeable players. This discussion keeps me mentally tuned to poker.

For several years,I had a poker buddy, Greg,"The Machine Rolling" with whom I discussed poker strategies.

We often critiqued each others play. This person has a computer mind.

Unfortunately, he is currently playing high-limit blackjack with a team of card counters. Hence,he is no longer playing poker. He plays about four or five times a week and has been doing extremely well for the past several months. Now my only "family" are the members of this forum,the articles in "Cardplayer" ,in "Poker Digest", and my basic poker books.


Happy pokering


Sitting Bull

Dear Sitting Bull,

Even though your "new family" may be dysfunctional.. It's good to be loved.


Sincerely,


Doc AZ