Stud Hi/Lo/8 - Adjusting to a high ante

OK, guys, I need strategic help big time. I am in this fabulous loose 6-12 stud/8 game that I should be killing, and instead it's killing me. I suspect that I need to make some adjustments because of the high ante.


The game: 6-12 hi/lo/8 stud, ante $1, bring-in $2, with a "kill" to 10-20 whenever one player scoops a pot of $60 or more. This ante is high by Vegas standards, right? My guess is that it would probably be 0.50 in Vegas. If it were 0.50 here, I would be up $1700 instead of down $1700, in 227 hours of play, and I wouldn't be writing this. The rake is as follows: $1 jackpot drop taken out of the antes; $2 at pot size 10 and $1 plus another $1 jackpot taken at pot size 30; typical dealer toke is $1. The pots are always big in this game, so just figure $6 for each full pot won. I play so tightly that I estimate that I win about a half-pot per hour, but I don't have records on that. So, for 227 hours of play, with my result of -1700, I have paid about $680 in rakes/tokes, and about $6,800 in antes.


My record: In 227 hours of play this year, I am down $1700 ($7.50 per hour) with a standard deviation of $75 an hour, with the 2-sigma around the -1700 result of +-2260. I guess, statistically, I'm not a sure loser quite yet. I have 25 winning sessions out of 71 sessions for a 35% winning session rate; my sessions are usually about 4 hours.


The opponents: out of my 7 opponents, 3 to 4 see 4th street when it is a limp-in, and (not much different) an average of 3 are in full-bet and kill (where you have to start with a full small bet) hands. Completing the 3rd street bet does almost nothing for getting people out. Then they really get married to whatever draw they have; most who see 4th street stay to see the river card. I have seen guys draw, with nothing for high, to try to make an 8 low, all the way to the river! It is extremely rare for someone to scoop the pot uncontested on the river; typically 2 to 4 are still in at the showdown.


This means that the first idea of adjusting to a high ante, which would be ante stealing and other bluffs and semi-bluffs, absolutely doesn't work.


My approach: Starting hands are pretty much by the book. To pay a full SB (which includes all kill pots), I play: trips, pair of Aces, high consecutive straight flush, 3 low to a straight (this includes, for only one full SB, a hand like 468), 3 to a 6 low, low 3-flush, and 3 low to an Ace. (This list, by my combinatorials, is about 11-12% of all starting hands.) With KK or QQ, faced with a full SB, I will usually either raise or fold, depending on overcards on board (almost always fold) and whether I think I can get people out. The only starting hand worth discussing is 3 low to an Ace. RZ has talked me into treating this as a good hand, but I'm still a little goosy about Ax8, and I don't want to pay a full bet to play this on 3rd street unless the Ace is totally live. The only 4th street card I really welcome is another Ace.


I have already tried to loosen up due to the ante, by limping with more speculative hands. I will pay the 1/3 of a SB to limp in with: any live pair, any 3 low except x78, and a 3-flush with 2 low cards and one paint. If I don't catch perfect on 4th street I drop them right then.


4th street: I treat this as a great "implied odds" game (Andy Nelson's term), where for a limp or one SB on 3rd street and an SB on 4th street, you can take a cheap shot at making a monster, and then collect many multiple Big Bets on 5th, 6th, and 7th, because of the jamming that often occurs. Most of my starting hands that I'll pay a full SB for on 3rd are worth one SB on 4th even if I catch bad. My criterion is that, by 5th street, I have to have either a made hand one way (and it's the best - I keep watching the others' boards), or a very good 2-way draw (I use RZ's rule of a straight draw or better) that, again, looks like it can scoop if I hit it. An example of a hand where I would take another card on 4th is (23) 5 J, where I have started with 235 and caught a Jack on 4th. If the 4s are live (one out would be OK), I'll take the cheap 4th street card and hope for a 4 to give me the monster draw. An example of one I would NOT pursue on 4th is (A4) 6 J, where the best catches, an Ace or a [2,3,5], still only give me a one-way draw after 5th.


5th street and beyond: I am very selective about what to carry on with on 5th street. My philosophy is summed up by my own saying, "No one-way draws after 5th street." There are some exceptions if the pot is big, but I follow the book by wanting a made one-way hand with good prospects (either clearly the best or including a draw at the other way), or a 2-way draw with at least 8 outs to scoop (usually a low 4-straight). Specifically, I will throw away a small 2 pair on 5th every time, but I will usually keep what looks like top 2 pair (but never worse than QQ up), and push it hard if no one has 3 low straight/flush cards up.


My notes and my recollection is that I'm not "cracked" all that often, although there are certainly some memorable ones, but that I'm just not getting the starting hands, and the few that I get, I don't complete the draws. I call it "slow bleeding," a dollar a hand.


Comments? Advice?


Dick

The $1 jackpot coming out of the ante effectively turns this back into a moderate .50 ante game. So I don't think that's the real problem. Plus when the kill is on, the ante stays the same, right? If so, that makes it a small-ante game at the higher limit.


You might be playing a few too many hands on 4th street, trying to catch miracle cards when the pot odds don't warrant it. Keep in mind that your implied odds aren't actually all that great when it looks like the pot is going to get split. If you get heads up, your implied odds in a split pot are non-existent. So I would say make sure you're not leaking a lot of chips on 4th street chasing 2- and 3-outers on the theory that you're going to make up for this with a big score on the expensive streets.


Also, I wouldn't play "any live pair" in this game. A live pair with an ace or a straight-flush kicker, yes. But not just any live pair.

Right - the ante stays at $1 for the 10-20 kill pots, which makes the ante only 1/10 of a SB instead of the usual 1/6 SB. I consider this to be advantageous for me, as I get to play kill pots for much less (no forced bring-in, either).


I don't understand what you mean, that the $1 jackpot removal changes it back to an effective 0.50 ante. I still PAID a full dollar, and the pot still has $7 of the original $8 in antes in it. Please explain further.


Thanx for the advice.


Dick

I think you may be failing to adjust to the texture of your game. If lots of people are loose and having fun, maybe you should pick some spots and try to pick off bluffs and cultivate a looser image yourself (while still basically playing tight). I'd push small advantages early in this game and definitely be looking for half pot opportunities on 5th street and beyond. When 4 or 5 people stay, half the pot isn't a bad deal. Yes you should stick to tight values, but you will probably have to be alert for opportunities to change things up to really beat this game. When lots of people stay in, you have to play the players,not the cards. Just a thought...

Sorry, I'm not awake yet.


You're right, it's still a high-ante game at the lower limit. Moderate ante at the higher limit.


Still, I wouldn't change your 3rd street play much. Based on your descriptions, I would suspect some 4th-street and 5th street problems. They're not huge, because you're not losing that badly.

i suspect Dick as you play tight enough you are either playing in some spots with dead cards and getting roped in for too many bets later on. or are not getting out when someone catches a hand that puts you drawing close to dead. a few of these pots a night or so can destroy your results.

also play on with those broken good three lows on 4th when it looks like no one caught four good ones to a low and its only one bet.

ace x 8 is a good hand but not when you have things like dead aces out or a few players with small cards in. then you are in bad shape.

Thanks, Ray ...


I don't think I'm playing dead cards. While not truly expert, I think I'm pretty darn good at remembering folded cards and being aware of how live my draws are. I use the Roy West method of remembering only the cards that have been folded, in order, and I keep a count of my flush suit if I start with 2 or 3 of a suit.


I also think my observation of the opponents' boards is good. I am especially aware of how good my low or low draw is, compared with the others. I don't have any trouble dumping a second-place draw.


I WILL take your advice and loosen up on 4th street if I have a busted 3-low but everyone else does too. I admit I often threw these away automatically. The game is passive enough, however, that I often get a free card here anyway.


We seem to agree on Ax8. A good start if the other Aces are live, otherwise trouble.


Thanks.


Dick

I agree with the others who've posted that this isn't a big ante game. As Lin mentioned with the jackpot rake being taken out of the antes, this isn't a high rake game. You are paying .145 of a small bet for the ante in a full game (.142 when one player sits out). Compare this to a $1 ante in an 8/16 game where the ante is .125 of a small bet.


It might be the kill that is hurting your play and not the ante. If this is even a moderatly tight game, then the kill will often be posted when a hand isn't shown down (it's only 5 BB). You don't say how much the killer is posting, but in general kill games require that tighten up considerably, not loosen up.


In stud/8, as in hold'em, as in most forms of poker, it really is hard to play too tight. I'd suggest going back to a more "rocky" game and see if that straightens things out.


- Andrew

it may just be you fourth street play then.

On a Kill, the ante is still $1 (now 1/10 of a SB), and the killer posts the $10 SB, so there is no forced bring-in. I play much tighter on kill pots, since there is no possibility of limping for 1/3 of a SB.


Dick

Dick,


In general, you should play tighter when you it is not a kill pot. When it is a kill pot, tightening up on your limps is correct, but you can also loosen up on your *raising* requirement just a smidge. In fact, many limping hands become raising hands.


The reason why you have to tighten up when it is not a kill, is that the kill acts an additional rake if you scoop. In practical terms, a $10 kill might be equivalent to an aditional $2-$3 rake. Of course, this rake is distributed to the other players instead of the house, but you still must pay it.


You can play looser on raises when there is a kill because there is now the possibility of more than doubling the amount of dead money in the pot. If the killer calls with "any three" then you are in an even better situation.


- Andrew