Someone explain something to me [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

TheJackal

11-02-2004, 04:03 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed)

MP3 (t1470)
CO (t1240)
Button (t800)
SB (t2490)
BB (t1450)
UTG (t1460)
UTG+1 (t1700)
MP1 (t1380)
Hero (t1510)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 folds, Hero raises to t100, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button raises to t800, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t770, Hero raises to t1510, UTG+1 calls t710.

Flop: (t3865) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)

Turn: (t3865) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)

River: (t3865) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)

Final Pot: t3865

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has 6s 6d (four of a kind, sixes).
Hero has Tc Th (two pair, tens and sixes).
Button has As Ac (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins t3865. 

How can he call in that spot? If he hadn't called I would have mucked. Since he did flat call the all-in, I felt I had him because previously he called me down with pocket 5's with 4 overs on the board (I had KQs, no pair, but I bet every street like I had at least top pair, but he still called me down.) I just don't understand how people can play this poorly and still win. Any thoughts or was I just unlucky?

Chief911

11-02-2004, 04:09 PM

If you want my honest opinion, I was wondering how you called that huge reraise with a coldcaller already in it. Dont you think atleast one of them has you dominated?

Obviously the 66 guy made a very questionable call, and got lucky. You made a questionable call, and did not.

Nick

TheJackal

11-02-2004, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you want my honest opinion, I was wondering how you called that huge reraise with a coldcaller already in it. Dont you think atleast one of them has you dominated?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought maybe the person on the button had me dominated, but I didn't think the oold caller did because of previous action from him. I didn't even think he had two overcards to my tens. I could move in there and even if I lost to the button stay close to even after I beat the cold caller. I think I could have folded there, but I would be on a freeroll against the button is the cold caller had a smaller pocket pair. He just happened to hit miracle quads...

SpeakEasy

11-02-2004, 05:08 PM

I think your initial raise is OK, but this is a clear fold for me when the play gets back around after the raise.

In this situation, without the benefit of knowing previous hands, I would have put UTG+1 on AA or KK with his call -- it looked like he wanted to bring you along for the ride. If he had a slightly weaker hand (AK, QQ, maybe JJ) his best move would have been all-in to try to shut you out and get heads up against the Button.

As it turns out, Button has AA, and UTG+1 made a bad play that lucked into a winner. Button’s strength is hard to detect given his stack size and lack of room to do anything except push. Your read of UTG+1 was correct, but there is still a good probability that one of the two hands dominated your TT or at least was a coin-flip against your hand. I would fold this hand and play on with my 1410 stack.

jakethebake

11-02-2004, 05:19 PM

What it comes down to is that you went all-in with a mediocre hand and got called. Yes, he sucked out on you, but why were you all in with TT there? I wonder if the guy with AA is whining...

mart_ph

11-02-2004, 06:23 PM

I would have definitely folded when reraised with just TT this early in the tourney.

TheJackal

11-02-2004, 06:39 PM

I'd be more angry if I would had folded to see the flat caller with 66. I can't worry too much about results when I make the right call. Granted the button had AA, but the flat caller was dominated and I really couldnt be hurt unless he flopped a set. I wouldn't have lost much if I beat the flat caller like I should 80% of the time and sometimes I would suck out on the AA and win myself. It just didn't work out like that...

Chief911

11-02-2004, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be more angry if I would had folded to see the flat caller with 66. I can't worry too much about results when I make the right call. Granted the button had AA, but the flat caller was dominated and I really couldnt be hurt unless he flopped a set. I wouldn't have lost much if I beat the flat caller like I should 80% of the time and sometimes I would suck out on the AA and win myself. It just didn't work out like that...

[/ QUOTE ]

What? /boggle. "I can't worry too much about results when I make the right call" This was not the right call. This is the right call if you are isolated with just the one players you correctly tagged as probably having a worse hand. You made a huge mistake in not thinking about what the other player had.

I can't think I'm far off when I say that 7 of 10 times in this situation, with a pusher and a caller, you're behind with TT.

Nick

poboy

11-02-2004, 07:06 PM

I think a better question would be how could you stay in this? Did you honestly believe your hand was good after the button went all-in and UTG+1 called? This would tell me that at least one of them has overcards and possibly a bigger pair ,if not both of them. Putting all your chips in early with at best a coin-flip or as it turned out to be a huge dog is not very solid play. Your criticizing him is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

poboy

11-02-2004, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't have lost much if I beat the flat caller like I should 80% of the time and sometimes I would suck out on the AA and win myself. It just didn't work out like that...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you put your chips at risk if you expect to lose anything? I prefer to get my chips in when I expect to win. The rare occasion that you suck out on AA is not going to make up for the chips you lose here. In fact I would think that this would be offset by the times 66 sucks out on you.

TheJackal

11-02-2004, 07:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think a better question would be how could you stay in this? Did you honestly believe your hand was good after the button went all-in and UTG+1 called?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I had UTG+1 beat. I could have folded there, and I probably should have. Here's what I think a lot of you are missing, had UTG+1 NOT called, I would have folded. The whole reason I moved in was because he flat called. I had a feeling the original raiser had me beat, but I felt I was ahead of UTG+1 big time. It's not like the pot calling the kettle black, since he was beat in two spots for nearly all his chips, I was beat in one for half of my chips, and the original raiser was ahead of both of us. Who made the bigger error? Did I make a bigger mistake for basically an even money wager as a 4-1 dog, or the guy who put all his chips at risk as a 4-1 dog? I understand all your guys comments and I do appreciate all of them, but please don't tell me I made a big mistake, because it was really only a minor one.

jedi

11-02-2004, 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I understand all your guys comments and I do appreciate all of them, but please don't tell me I made a big mistake, because it was really only a minor one.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure? Do you really want to be risking 1460 in chips to win 1420?

PrayingMantis

11-02-2004, 07:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but please don't tell me I made a big mistake, because it was really only a minor one.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO you did make a big mistake. It's the mistake of overplaying medium pocket-pairs in early stage of a NL SNG, when the action PF indicates that most chances your hand is simply not good enough. Not being able to let go of it is not a minor mistake.

PrayingMantis

11-02-2004, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't understand how people can play this poorly and still win. Any thoughts or was I just unlucky?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unlucky?? I don't understand how you can say that. In fact, if you spiked a T on this board, and won it, the guy with AA could have said _exactly_ the same thing about your play, only he would be correct, as opposed to you when you say it here.

viennagreen

11-02-2004, 08:14 PM

I think that you need to rethink what a flat-call means.

Most decent players will flat-call if they want people to "come-along", and reraise to protect their hand.

A flat-call like that isn't usually a sign of weakness. And TT should be easy to lay down when faced with that kind of action.

TheJackal

11-02-2004, 08:14 PM

I'll say it again, if UTG +1 would have folded, I would have folded too. The only reason I moved in was because he did. It was a mistake, but I've made much much worse ones before (not that that is a good thing) as I am sure a lot of us have.

jedi

11-02-2004, 08:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'll say it again, if UTG +1 would have folded, I would have folded too. The only reason I moved in was because he did. It was a mistake, but I've made much much worse ones before (not that that is a good thing) as I am sure a lot of us have.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you fold when you need to beat ONE player for half your chips, but you raise all-in when you need to beat TWO players, one of whom has already called a 25x+ BB all-in raise?

It's a big mistake here. To say that you would have been upset at yourself when the 66 was shown is pretty bad. I would have been pissed when I saw that I got involved against AA for half my stack like that.

This is a HUGE mistake. Listen to the others. Someone else's "bad play" shouldn't cause you to make a mistake. In this case, it should have saved you from making that mistake.

Chief911

11-02-2004, 08:23 PM

Jackal,

I think this was something personal with UTG+1. Reraising even though you know you are beat by the button, to try to take UTG+1's extra 800 chips here is a very risky move.

Remember, even bad players get good hands. Your read was correct, and he had the worse hand, but this is a big gamble and simply smells of a bit of tilt on your part.

I understand your reasoning, but still think you made a larger mistake than you are taking into account.

Nick

TheJackal

11-02-2004, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a HUGE mistake. Listen to the others. Someone else's "bad play" shouldn't cause you to make a mistake. In this case, it should have saved you from making that mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I didn't look at it like that. You are 100% right...

TheJackal

11-02-2004, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this was something personal with UTG+1.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right he called me down with pocket 5's after I made a great bluff attempt on each street. I wish I had a hand history for that one... It was like the 2nd hand of the SNG and I was low man after I bluffed off about 1/2 my stack. Built my stack back up to respectable level before this fiasco where I lost all my chips. I did want to beat him, but I shouldn't have let my ego get the better of me.

PrayingMantis

11-02-2004, 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're right he called me down with pocket 5's after I made a great bluff attempt on each street. I wish I had a hand history for that one... It was like the 2nd hand of the SNG and I was low man after I bluffed off about 1/2 my stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Judging from what you say here (all these huge bluffs at early stages, although I couldn't understand if you did it once or twice), you are probably playing way too recklessly in the very early stages. Why do you think it was a "great" bluff? If he's not a player who can lay down a hand (and apparantly, he is VERY far from it), any bluff attempt against him is a big mistake (and if you didn't have any read on him yet, why even try bluffing so big?).

stlip

11-03-2004, 02:50 PM

I folded a TT after an all-in push and a call (sound familiar) and of course the 2+2 er's say I should have played or raised earlier, anything but what I did and what you did.

Funny how we're not results oriented but when you lost doing what I didn't do, well somehow I should have, while you were obviously on tilt. LOL

OK, there were some significant differences in the game situations. But it is interesting how sure everyone sounds, except in similar circumstances where the right answer would be exactly the opposite.

My TT was up against two AQo and the board made a 6-10 straight.

Here's the thread where people tell me not to do anything like what you did (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1211162&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

PrayingMantis

11-03-2004, 03:00 PM

I didn't reply in that thread you're talking about, but these are two very different situations, for a few reasons. The line you took in that hand, makes calling more reasonable than folding (again, for a few reasons). It's very far from the case here. Same hands could and should be played VERY differently in NL SNGs. The fact that both hands are TT, doesn't necessariliy mean a lot.

stlip

11-03-2004, 03:10 PM

I agree there are some very substantial differences in the game situations. I was being a bit lighthearted about the contradictory advice because it is true that these are superficially similar situations where the opposite action might really be optimal.

BUT one issue where I see some real inconsistency from the 2+2ers is in the read on the opponents.

I read possible monster opposition and was criticized for acting overly cautiously as a result.

Jackal missed the read of possible monster hand opposing him and was chided for that.

Unarmed

11-03-2004, 03:43 PM

Against sh*tty opposition that overvalue their hands and will call with garbage:
Bluff rarely
Value bet more

It is not a stretch to say you shouldn't bluff EVER in the early stages of a low limit SNG. (semi-bluff, fine, I still don't do it often though unless my draw is exceptionally strong)

sofere

11-03-2004, 03:45 PM

I don't quite understand what u attempt to accomplish with this.
It seems that you expected to be a big dog against Button, but big favorite against UTG+1, so for arguments sake you will 100% lose to Button and 100% win against UTG+1.
If that's the scenario, then you are betting 1510 to win 740 (1510-770). If you fold, you have 1510 in your stack if you push and win against UTG+1 and lose to button (which you seem to be expecting), you have 740 in your stack. Looks like a pretty bad play to me.

PrayingMantis

11-03-2004, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BUT one issue where I see some real inconsistency from the 2+2ers is in the read on the opponents.

I read possible monster opposition and was criticized for acting overly cautiously as a result.

Jackal missed the read of possible monster hand opposing him and was chided for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically, I do not agree. Yes, sometimes there is inconsistency in replies, different people see different things, and this is only helpful for everybody. HOWEVER, in the two cases you're talking about, it's certainly not about having different reads. It's about making the right decisions. Sometimes you read a monster, and still should not fold. Sometimes you read a non-monster, but yet, SHOULD fold.

It's all about stacks, position, and the specific situation in the game. In your case - (with the line you took!) folding for the extra X chips didn't make much sense, no matter if you "read" a monster. In the case here, the action _screams_ hero is beaten, and still he's pushing _all_ his stack in the middle. This is really in brief, and without getting into too much detail about your (and this) hand.

It's very dangarous, IMO, to think that different situations are similar because of superficial reasons. That's because there are MANY factors to take in calculation, in each case.

And BTW - why are you looking for consistency in the replies here? Choose the best advice, no matter what it is, for each situation (it's difficult, I know). Sometimes it's the minority's advice. And sometimes you'll get few wrong advices for a post. That's life.