A POLL....... 7CSTUD

Hello Everyone,


Wondering what some of the posters on this forum would do in this situation.


Game is 1-5 stud that actually has decent,tight but predictable players in it.


I am forced low with 2c. I also have black Kings in hole.


I bring it in for $3


All fold ( including another 2 ) to an opponent who holds the Kd who makes it $8. Others fold to another opponent who holds the last K who makes it $13.


Action back to me.


What would you do..


Later,


CJ


I was talking with a buddy of mine, and we disagreed about my play of this. Wondering what everyone else thinks..

I'd let the hand go. The pot is small, you've got dead cards, and at least one player is saying he can beat a pair of Kings.


If the second raiser made it $13 and is a decent, tight but predictable player then it's hard to believe he's got anything but pocket Aces. The second raiser must have put the Kd on split Kings and you should put the second raiser on a hand which can beat a pair of Kings. Therefore, you fold with your extremely dead cards.


Even if both players had pocket Aces (and therefore dead cards themselves), you would be an extreme dog against them and they're are going to make it expensive.

Hi again all,


I thought this was an easy no brainer.. I folded.


Like I said this table was tight and predictable. I could have easily beat the first player but probably not the second.. Obviously they don't have Kings and they hadn't done any 'imaginative' raises with big cards or three flushes, etc.

A raise and/or re-raise means big pair plain and simple.


My buddy of mine argued that since these players were so unimaginative that I should have called the bets since I knew they didn't have Kings, hoping for a situation where I could outplay them later. I completely disagree with him in this situation.. Cause I knew they had Big pairs, one of which was probably Aces and they also probably wouldn't lay them down..


As it turns out, they both had Pocket Aces.. A huge pot turned out between the two of them. Both had open pairs of Queens on fifth street. Several raises transpired on all betting rounds.


On the river.. The first K after mine backed into a flush while the other K (last re-raiser) backed into a A high straight.


Later,


CJ

you almost certainly should fold, since you are in a small pot. If these are tight predictable players what else could the reraiser have other than pocket aces? If he did not have that hand then your assessment of him is clearly incorrect.


Importantly, if your kings were not dead, lets say the first raiser had a Q and the reraiser had a 6 up, then you would definitely call.


pat

Your kings are dead. At least one of the other raisers have aces and maybe the other 3 to a flush. I agree this is an easy fold.

Yup the key rule at stud is having live cards you have to fold in that spot (supposing i have a hidden pair of seven in that spot i would have called hoping the magic 7 on the 4th buit your kings were dead and then...)


Marco

Dear Sitting Bull,

I agree with you. But I am going to tell you some thing that you probably already know.( "I know" "I do that a lot" But your enthusiasm for our game reminds me of myself") The point is one that is very important and took me two years to fully appreciate, it is to always think of every starting hand in three dimensions. Pairing probabilities, straight probabilities, and flush probabilities. Now this hand is "SO DEAD" that the flush probabilities really don't matter. But one of the transitions that you will see as you move into the higher limits ,is the importance that advanced players put on a hand having multiply probabilities of improvement.

You had "black kings" in the hole and a two of clubs in the door. So a better description of the hand would be "Black kings in the hole a two of clubs in the door and 0 1 2 3 or 4 clubs out in the other hands. As I said you probably are thinking that way already. A live pair of kings can have its winning potential boosted by 3% with a totally live 2 flush draw. Calculating the boost in winability added by having a live 2 straight draw and or a live 2 flush draw can make all the difference in the playability of a hand. When you get to the higher limits you will see players playing pocket 7s with a 6 in the door with a live two straight, and a live two flush the same way that they would play a live pair of Queens. (I often think that they over play these small advantages but they do) When you play against these players, and you raise with Jacks for example, and then they come back right at you with a 6 in the door, many times they are gambling on hitting a draw to go with their pair.And if you don't understand that move you can miss read them for pocket Queens, Kings, or Aces. Also when you see these solid players playing more starting hand, especially out of late positions, And you wonder how is this good player calling so frequently and not getting into trouble, that is what they are doing. If they do they stay with you on third and if they don't get improvement on 4th street, the good player will drop his hand like a hot potato. Or if he pairs his door card and you don't he will come right at you presuming that you will properly drop your hand ,if you didn't hit at least two pair.

One of the members said that if he had been in your position and that had he had pocket sevens (live I hope) that he would call the double raise. I wouldn't have done that, what I would say to myself is, what is the probability that I will hit my 7 on 4th street if my 7s are live. Answer: 19 to 1, so when you call that double bet 20 times you are going to miss 19 times and hit 1 time. There for I would need to anticipate winning a pot of 19 xs 11(I can't remember exactly how large the pot was after the double raise)or a final pot of over $209 dollars, it has to be over $209 dollars because because sometimes when you do make my trips you will still loose to a bigger set, or a made straight or flush. And it is rare to see a 1-5 pot of that size. Now on the other hand if it had been one modest raise (ie 3 dollars or so) then I would have called the bet, especially if I also had a live 2 flush or 2 straight to go with them. Thank you for raising this topic.


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ

Hello,CJ,

***Tight players***

Someone has pocket A's*******Fold.

Let's assume that you folded the best hand on 3rd.

This would be a minor error.

If you string along with this dead door nail against a tight field,you are making a major mistake.


Sitting Bull

Doc AZ, You posted excellent points but i sayed that if i was in that spot instead of having 2 dead kings i would have preferred to have a pair of live hidden sevens; i don't care if i was 19 to 1 dog to hit a trips, if i do hit that magic third seven I have a very high return on the hand and i can always pair my doorcard on 4th (but this also happens with his dead kings)


However, excellent post about the big boys play.


Marco

As others have said, this is an easy fold, but I'm surprised that no one has commented on your bringing it in for $3. I've never played $1-5, but with a hand as dead as yours, I'd want to bring it in for the minimum and see what happens. You can re-raise if you deem it appropriate, or if you have a lot of action as in this case, you can fold with the minimum investment.

Andy,


You bring up a point in which I was hoping others would comment on.


Actually in retrospect I probably should have brought it in for the maximum. Since it easily could have been the best hand at the time, but also easily outdrawn. I would have been very happy with the antes.


I try to mix it up with the bring-ins in this game. Sometimes I slowplay ( which I would have been more willing to do if my cards were live ) hoping to reraise. Sometimes I bring it in for other amounts such as this. Obviously with crap it is $1.


Later,


CJ

did not read other posts...did not have to You should not call 2 cold raises with KK and duce. If your kicker were bigger you "could" call, but even that is a stretch.. I would fold the hand and suck up the $2 additional dollars you bet. why did you bring for $3? Whay not 1 or 5? The $1 bring in traps opponents and the $5 makes them take notice. The $3 is a mistake.

You are either against KK, AA, 3 suited or some asshole who wants to "teach you a lesson" for bringing in for $3

You say: "If your kicker were bigger you "could" call"


Why is the size of his kicker important unless it's an Ace? No matter what it is, he's drawing to make Kings-up which is unlikely to win this hand. Even if he had an Ace kicker, I'd conclude two of the Aces are dead and still fold.

With live cards, actually I think this is wrong unless you have antes in the game. If there were no antes it is almost always incorrect to raise the max. Your focus should be on trapping players rather than shutting them out here. But this is ONLY where there are no antes. Of course with dead cards you probably should bet the max.


Pat

Ratso,


I have to agree with Dynasty here.. calling KK with any kicker here is a mistake..


Also, I posted above as to my bring in. It probably should have been brought in for $5. ( although in this instance it saved me money )


Later,


CJ

Hello, CJ,

I'm assuming that most of your opponents are observant players who study how you play. Am I correct?


Sitting Bull

Larry,


Some opponents in this game actaully do try to study you. Most just try to play their own game however ( which is usually very weak ). It is the very reason why I love that game.


Later,


CJ

In a 1-5 game with little or no ante I would not call the hand as stated above. However, in a decent game with an ante and someone trying to possibly steal, I would consider calling if (1) I had 2 suited cards (2) a higher hole card. Suppose 1 of the players has KK and another has 3 suited cards, I might be tempted to take a card because of my KK. The surprise value of a high pocket pair is nice. If none of us improve at showdown and I have a low kicker, I would loose. I did not want to imply I would definitelycall the hand, but in a short game under the right circumstances, a call with KK, big might be OK.