A reasonable way to play QQ against an overcard on the flop?

[Derek in NYC]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

[MarkD]

I don't like this line at all. You are giving your opponent a chance to fold a worse hand and also giving him the opportunity to extract the maximum from you when his hand is good.

I'd check call the flop, and then check the turn:
- if my opponent bets the turn, I call and check the river.
- if my opponent checks the turn, I bet the river and call a raise.

I'm not worried about the 2 flush on the board, but I will bluff a fourth club on the river if I have been check / calling the flop and turn.

[digdeep]

How is he extracting the maximum when his hand is good? I don't understand why check calling is the best play here? Is the way Villian played this hand the optimal way to play, AK, or KK, or AA (which are the hands that beat Hero and would warrant a cap preflop)?

With Hero's raise on the flop, he is discovering where he stands in the hand, is he not? With no reraise don't you assume Hero has the best hand?

Again, is the way Villian played this a strategically correct play? Is it better to call TPTK down heads up, in fear that a raise will encourage your opponent to fold?

[private joker]

I think I agree with Mark. C/Ring the flop might get AK to slow down a bit and now you're betting for him. By betting out on this flop, his raise can tell you you're probably beat and should just check-call down. What hands would he play this way PF that QQ beats after he raises your flop bet? But by checking this flop, his bet tells you nothing.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
How is he extracting the maximum when his hand is good? I don't understand why check calling is the best play here? Is the way Villian played this hand the optimal way to play, AK, or KK, or AA (which are the hands that beat Hero and would warrant a cap preflop)?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite. Optimal way for AA or AK in this hand would be to raise the river, but in general, yes - villian played AA or AK very well (if that is what he had). If he has TT or JJ then he [censored] up, but hero gave him the opportunity to make a good, easy lay down.

[ QUOTE ]
With Hero's raise on the flop, he is discovering where he stands in the hand, is he not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. Check raise me all day here with this betting sequence. I have position on you and it makes playing my hand really easy if you C/R me with pocket queens on this flop. No matter what hand I have (and the range is something like TT, JJ, QQ, AA, AK, AQs) if you C/R me on this flop I can play my hand much better than you can play yours.

[ QUOTE ]
With no reraise don't you assume Hero has the best hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be naieve.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, is the way Villian played this a strategically correct play? Is it better to call TPTK down heads up, in fear that a raise will encourage your opponent to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to make a general rule here, but with this pre-flop betting and hero's flop play if villian has AK or AA he should call down and then raise the river. Hero will lose the maximum and villian will gain the maximum.

[phuc]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to make a general rule here, but with this pre-flop betting and hero's flop play if villian has AK or AA he should call down and then raise the river. Hero will lose the maximum and villian will gain the maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm agreeing with you here Mark, but I want to look at it from the villian's point of view (assuming he has AK). What if he plays it exactly as you say and waits until the river to raise and then he gets re-raised? I assume you have to call since the pot will be huge, but what hands would the hero have to have to re-raise on the river (AA or AK, I assume)? I just want to hear your opinion. Thanks.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm agreeing with you here Mark, but I want to look at it from the villian's point of view (assuming he has AK). What if he plays it exactly as you say and waits until the river to raise and then he gets re-raised? I assume you have to call since the pot will be huge, but what hands would the hero have to have to re-raise on the river (AA or AK, I assume)? I just want to hear your opinion. Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, we are looking at this from the perspective of the villian and the villian has AK or AA (we discount the possibility that he has KK). If villian raises the river and gets re-raised he is forced to call, but the reality of the situation is that villian will almost never get reraised on the river if he holds AK or AA. I think it's so rare that it isn't worth discussing, but we will.

The reason that we would have to call is purely based on Bayseian Analysis.

If we have AK our opponent has:
AA (3)
KK (1)
AK (6)

if we have AA our oponent has:
AA (1)
KK (3)
AK (6)

In reality, if I was to get reraised on the river I would put a lot more weight on the possibility of my opponent having KK (but if he does have KK then his CR on the flop is piss poor), but the pot is laying us enough odds that we would have to call with both AK and AA here.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
With Hero's raise on the flop, he is discovering where he stands in the hand, is he not? With no reraise don't you assume Hero has the best hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so rarely true. Look at it this way, what hands that you want to call will call? What hands will fold that you want to fold?

[digdeep]

Thanks for the replies Mark and Sfer. I better see your points with the futility of a check raise here. I still am trying to understand why check-calling is the best play? If you do have the best hand, you are not maximizing it, and if you are beat, you are wasting money by calling this down? Is there no other choice but to check call this hand? Would a bet on the flop be a reasonable move, folding to a raise?

I am adhering to the concept that if you are beat, fold. Get out of this hand quickly and cheaply. If however you are ahead, make your money?

Is this situation just not that clear cut?

Isn't calling the worst move in poker?

[sfer]

Worse hands don't pay you off, but they might bluff you off the best hand. Better hands will always extract extra bets out of you. If he's capable of a flop raise with a worse hand or betting a worse hand--i.e. he's an unknown--check/call.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]

Isn't calling the worst move in poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no way to be so simplistic. Calling is sometimes the best move in poker.

[House-Lion]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG caps, CO folds,

[/ QUOTE ]
I would make a note on CO, prepared to cold-call 2 but folds to the cap, that is not your average party-clown.

[MarkD]

This hand highlights the importance of position in head’s up confrontations.

[ QUOTE ]
? If you do have the best hand, you are not maximizing it, and if you are beat, you are wasting money by calling this down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, but if you do have the best hand there is no other way for you to get maximum value from it other than check/calling. If you take the initiative at any point in this hand you are allowing a weaker hand to fold. If you check/call then you rope-a-dope your opponent into betting a worse hand those times when you are actually ahead. The thing about this hand is that there is no way for you to know if you are ahead or behind, with any reasonable confidence, head’s up out of position. Now, a strong argument could be made for betting the river after check/calling the flop and turn, but I don’t want to go down that path in this point.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there no other choice but to check call this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I don’t see a better choice available to us.

[ QUOTE ]
Would a bet on the flop be a reasonable move, folding to a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don’t think so. You will get bluffed out when you have the best hand too often following this line. A lot of opponents will raise your flop bet with 99-JJ hoping to check behind on the turn and river. Also, betting and folding the flop is bad for your Shania in general IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
I am adhering to the concept that if you are beat, fold. Get out of this hand quickly and cheaply. If however you are ahead, make your money?

Is this situation just not that clear cut?


[/ QUOTE ]
Poker is rarely that simple - especially situations where you are out of position in a head’s up confrontation like this one. This situation is not clear cut.

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't calling the worst move in poker?

[/ QUOTE ]
Calling gets a bad rap. You have 3 weapons in poker – use them all.

[Derek in NYC]

Thanks so much. Your explanation about how I'm always going to take the worst of it, with nothing to gain, really makes sense to me.

Do you check-call all the way to the river assuming another broadway card doesn't fall, and the villian is continuing to bet (e.g., on the flop, on the turn, on the river)? Or do you just assume you're beat and fold unimproved on the turn?

By the way, villian showed A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif, and strangely did not raise the river.

[digdeep]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Excellent posts.