Question for Mason & Ray or other stud experts

My question is regarding the play of a hand in a loose stud game.

Its a game where players often call with nothing just to see what they might hit in the next couple of cards.

The Ante is 1/8 the size of the small bet


The low card brings in and a Jack raises in early position.

There are two callers with small cards and a solid player re-raises a queen. This player must have at least Q's or J's to make this re-raise, but I think he would slowplay rolled up.


I am next after him with A 10 10 with the 10 up. My cards are live but I do not have a 2 flush.


What is my best play here considering the game is loose.


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Results


I re-raised and the pot was 5 way for 3 bets. It was checked to me on 4th and I had a chance to take a free card but I bet again feeling there was value in the 5 outs to either Aces up or 3 10's in a multiway pot. I feel I will win more than 1/5 of the time so shouldn't I bet? I bet 5th street and now it was just the 3 of us the Q and the J and me. On sixth I made on open pair of 7's and bet and was now heads up with the Q. On the river I filled up and bet and was called by Q's up and won a nice pot.


I am posting this question because I really am concerned that I did not make the right play. I know that I cannot get the pot heads up and that I don't have a two flush. After the hand I think that my best play was to fold on 3rd street. Or if I was going to play just call on 3rd and look to raise the Q's on 5th street to try and get heads up then. What do you think.


Thanks

You should reraise if you think this will knock some players out. If you don't think that this is the case I would consider folding since you don't have a two flush unless they play really bad. With the two flush I might call if they play badly but I certainly don't like it.


On fourth street I would have checked after it was checked to you. Since you failed to narrow the field, betting here won't do it either. But if you check, a raise on fifth street might do the job. Also, you may want to fold on fifth street if the cards come badly for you.


Remember, whenever you start with the smaller pair, part of your wins are when you make small two pair and beat an unimproved higher pair. This will almost never happen with four opponents. But it doesn happen frequently when heads-up.

Since you are next after him if you think that you will be able to knock other players out this should be an almost automatic reraise if you think all he has are q's. If you have a twoflush you can call. Otherwise I would probably fold.


On fourth street your decision depends on the cards that are out. Given th size of the pot it mnay be better to just check and see what happens rather than lead at the pot. But if you think players will fold then you should bet. If a player is able to call three bets on third and thenfold on fourth they are making a big mistake somewhere.


Pat

Hello,Kick,

Call on 3rd. If no improvement,fold--do not carry this hand in a multi-way pot

If you improve,bang it all the way to the riverr.


Sitting Bull

This hand is so helpful and illustrates a lot.


Raise if you can get heads-up.

Call with pair, live overcard and 2 flush.

Otherwise fold.

Dear Kick It,

I am afraid that I must agree with Mason. I don't like playing in multiway pots with what is probably the third best pair, even though I have what the "old pros" use to call "the only real overcard." Also like Mason if I had taken the double bet (which I usualy wouldn't have ) and the probable Queens and Jacks both checked to me, I would have smiled, and been pleased to take the free card. Especialy when I had an unimproved pair and probably the third best hand at that point.You gave a statistic on bets having positive pot odds, but I am afraid that you forgot that those odds might be correct for the probably winning hand. Since your hand was only the third best hand ,at that point your odds would have had reverse implied odds, not positive implied odds. Now if you had a big totally live four flush and a 54% fill rate and were only putting a third of the money into the , that would have been a different story. As Mason implied a bet here is not a true value bet since you are still chasing, and unless your bet had a good chance of obtaining isolation ,and there by boosting your probability of winning it was probably best to take the free card. I am afraid your bet had negative mathematical expectations. And old pro gave me a word of advice that I have always remembered. He said "Hell Doc for forty years I have saved my bets for times when I have a good advantage. I don't even like making bets when I have a little advantage, I'd rather save my bets for situations where I have a good advantage. And that policy has paid plenty of rent bills over the year". I am glad though that you did hit that 9% probability of filling your house on the river with your two small pair.


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ

PS If you think that I have made a concerted effort of seeking out "old pros" and questioning them about their approaches to playing the game. You are exactly right.

Hello, Doc,

I believe that I would increase my hourly one BB profit if I

decide not to engage in "close call situations"where I have a small edge over the field.


However,I do not think that this applies to large high limit ante games with a field of almost all good players if one plays frequently under these conditions.

One would have to play with small advantages in order to succe ssfully compete. Sitting Bull

Hello, Doc,

I believe that I would increase my hourly one BB profit if I

decide not to engage in "close call situations"where I have a small edge over the field.


However,I do not think that this applies to large high limit ante games with a field of almost all good players if one plays frequently under these conditions.

One would have to play with small advantages in order to succe ssfully compete. Sitting Bull


Happy Pokering!

Dear Sitting bull,

You make an excellent point, in a heads up situation at a higher limit it would be common for a smaller live pair to play against a larger pair. For example when the smaller pair has a live over card, and the player is abel to get the hand heads up, and there is dead money in the pot. In that situation you can usualy get a read on read your opposition. And especialy if you have a live two draw or other factors that boost the winnability of your hand. Now your nearly even pair draw can have positive implied odds because of the extra dead money in the pot. In situations like this you know that in the long run you will eventualy be a winner. But at the lower limits because of the frequent multiway nature of hands, your implied positive pot odds are lost, since the probalility that a small two pair at the river in your hand will take the pot has been decreased. Thank you. Point well made.


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ