Little Fish ??

I play mostly $1-3 stud at Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods in CT, started casino play only a 16 months ago after playing in very small, "fun" home games for many years. During the past 16 months, I've gotten seriously interested in poker and have read many books (including West, Sklansky/Malmuth/Zee). I crush my home game,

where the stakes are tiny (.50 limit) -- in fact I try my best not to win too much as it is a friendly game. I only play casino poker about once a month, typically a 6-hour $1-3 sit. So I've probably

played about 100 hours total. I'm up about $150 in this time -- or about 1/2 big bet per hour. But I feel like I should be doing better. One leak I've resolved to work on is lack of patience -- in these games, you simply can't play low or mid pairs with one of the outstanding ranks dead or low or mid gutshots. But I'm wondering if, other than patience and tending to play trappy instead of aggressive early, anyone has any ideas on how to do better in this game. Or are my expectations simply unrealistic. I'd be especially interested in hearing from anyone who plays at lot at Mohegan or Foxwoods. Also, I'll be in Las Vegas (at the Venetian) on biz in March. Any recommendations for a good low stakes room?

Keep in mind the lower the limit you play (especially in 7-stud due to having fewer players on the table), the hard it is to overcome the rake. I imagine it would be next to impossible at 1-3.

Excellent point. At a rake of $1 every $10 in the pot up to $4 max, starting with a buck on the first called bet, the rake is a killer. Especially so if you like to be fairly aggressive and take a shot with as many hands as possible vs. just waiting for big starting holdings. Will moving to $1-5 (.50 ante, $1 limit) make a substantial difference?

There is no 1-3 stud on the Vegas Strip. All the poker rooms have 1-5 stud with no ante.


The casinos which have poker are: Sahara, Circus Circus, Stardust, Frontier, Mirage, Flamingo, Bellagio, Monte Carlo, Excalibur, Luxor, and Mandalay Bay.


I've said many times on this site that the Monte Carlo is the best small poker room on the Strip and that Mandalay Bay is second best. Of course, The Bellagio and Mirage dwarf those rooms and are great.


The Venietian does NOT have a poker room. The rooms closest to the Venietien are the Frontier, Stardust, Circus Circus, Mirage, and Flamingo.

Thanks Dynasty. I'm sure I'd be comfortable in a 1-5 no ante game. I'd like to go to the Mirage and/or Bellagio just to check out these famous venues. I'm assuming they spread 1-5 there, as well.

Is there an ante in the 1-3 in connecticut? If so you may be doing as well as you can expect, and probably cant do too much better. The 1-3 with an ante is a crapshoot and skill means very little. With no ante you are probably playing too loose. If someone bets the maximum you need to have the best hand or the best draw, otherwise fold. Consideration of the amount of players is an absolute must since most hands will be multiway. Even if you have a medium pair, in a multiway pot you should fold if someone bets the max and there are multiple callers, regardless of kicker. If it is only the bring in then you can play a lot of hands, maybe triple what you might otherwise do. Your implied odds are enormous if you can get in for just the bring in and catch just right on fourth street.


You should move up to 5-10 as soon as possible. When I started playing I played two winning sessions at 1-5 before I tried 5-10. The game is just bigger but not that much tougher in connecticut. In my opinion the 5-10 game at foxwoods is the most profitable game I have played in anywhere.


Good luck

Pat

probably not. the game without an ante might be beatable but with the ante and the rake it is almost impossible. Just take the plunge and move to 5-10, you might be surprised.


pat

Interesting point about Mandalay. I just stayed there and I could not even find a game worth playing there, but that was only for the four days I was there.


pat

Thanks Pat. There is no ante in 1-3, and I absolutely think playing too loose is hurting me. I will try 1-5 and see how I do.

I'm assuming it's much more aggressive and stronger players in that game. Any guidelines for playing?

no fun but in those high raked games with small antes you need to play so tight it hurts. tend to have the highest upcard paired when you are in and dont play with dead cards starting out unless its clear you are way out front.

I'm surprised. Mandalay Bay is almost always busy on the weekends. On weekdays, they usually have no more than two 1-5 stud and Hold'em games. But that's common for the small rooms. It was slow everywhere last week. I had to start up games at 2-3 in the afternoon a couple times.

Dear litle fish,

Ray is right (as always) the key to playing in a no ante game is that tight is right. I do think though, that if you do play it properly $1 to $5 stud, with no ante, is the best way to start if your goal is to be a winning poker player. Remember that at best only 5% (and possibly only 2-3%) of Casino poker players make money at the game. When I got started I use to remind myself that if I was only averageing a small amount in winnings each month that I was still doing better than well over 90% of the players. But as Ray said, with no ante you have to play so tight that it can get boring. Use the time that you are out of hands to practice learning the playing pattern of your opponents, and at counting the cards. Then when you move up to higher limits those skills will automaticaly be part of your game. The 1 to 5 game (in my book ) is a much better game than 1 to 3. The key is to stay out of hands until you start strong and then when you hit your hand you can jam the pot up. Ray,Dave, and Mason have a nice section in their book 7csfap on playing tecniques at low limits. The no ante is a huge factor in being abel to beat the game. If you had a 50 cent ante (as they

use to have in Arizona) you would have pay $13 dolars in antes

and 4 dollars in bring ins on average for the 26 hands typicaly

played an hour at the low limits. That $17 dollars an hour needs

to be won to stay even with the game turns the game into a

complete crap shoot.(See Sklanskies section on the relationship

of ante size to calling hands in his work "theory of poker"


As to which card room to play I would strongly recomend that you play in a room (like the Belagio) that doesn't take a jackpot dollar out of each pot. That exta $26 dollar an hour left on the table, is just $26 more dollars that you have a shot at winning. Remember that the high limit game players don't allow a dollar to be pulled from their pots for the jackpot, because the high limit players know that it's a bad bet.Our goal is not to get lucky one night every 3 years, but to make a steady income from the game. I have a friend that is a good stud player, and could play at much higher limits, but has played at the 1-5 stud game at the Belagio for years. His name coincidently is Doc, and even though he doesn't need any money he has won more than enough to pay for his sports betting which he also has made money at for years. If you have a chance to play there, give him my regards. And keep an eye on his playing style ,he has made playing that game an art form. Doc use to play from 9 AM to 4 PM each day. The house players at Casino Arizona, that play at the low limit holdem tell me that they make approx $1,000 dollars a month at 3-6 holdem.( that does not including their base saleries). There are less hands an hour played at stud and I feel if you average $800 dollars a month at 1-4 stud (which is our low limit) you would be playing a very good game of cards. Remember you can't progress at the game, until you can beat the game. Aand 1-5 is a good place to start.


Good luck...Most sincerely,


Doc AZ

Thanks, Doc. Unfortunately there is a .50 ante in the $1-5 game here (at Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun in CT), vs. no ante at $1-3. That certainly makes $1-5 a less tight game than $1-3. My perception from the few times I've sat in a game is that $1-5 attracts more good players but also more loose bad players (as opposed to tight bad players at $1-3). As I said in my first post, I only play casino poker about once a month and it is definitely a hobby not a vocation. But I am beginning to take the game seriously. My goal would be to move up to $5-10 and be able to hold my own there. Right now, that's where I'm at in $1-3 so maybe I'll take a shot at $1-5 and see how I do. Additional ideas on how to play these low games are very much apprectiate.

It is nopt stronger and more aggressive,it is just as easy. The guidelines for 1-3 are the same as for 1-5.


Good Luck

Pat

Thanks Pat -- I especially value your comments as you are a more experienced player who plays in the same place I do. It seems to me the 1-5 is more men with a sprinkling of wanna-be pros/serious players in among the retirees, tourists, etc. The 1-3 seems to be more older women, more calling stations, more people who are truly clueless. Also, the fact that every pot starts with $5 instead of $1 makes semi-bluffing and ante stealing feasible, whereas you really have no choice but to wait for strong cards in $1-3. Additionally, the bigger spread should make it more possible to force people out. Your thoughts?

there are a few more "serious" players, but they are not necessarily better players. You should quickly advance form that game and if you play even close to correct you should have no problem advancing. As far as semibluffing usually you will not be able to do it and will have to pick your spots. A friend of mine plays 1-5 at the Taj and I watched him get AKAJ on board with 3 clubs and two small pair called him down the whole way. The joke is that all he had were the aces.


One of the main considerations is that the rake is not as bad, but it is still the biggest winner at the table. Also if you are young, like me, you will be playing against many older players who will give you virtually no respect. When you play correctly you will be raising and betting much more often than your opponents and they will call you down very often, so semibluffing is not profitable. However, there is a fine line between semibluffing and betting for value in these games.


Good Luck,

Pat

Hello,MrB

If the 1-5 stud game has a .50 ante, it's going to be difficult

to beat--no matter how well you play.

Several players will probably stick around to see 3rd,4th,and 5th sts.

One of them will usually draw out on you when you have the best hand on 3rd or 4th---the collusion factor.

The game is beatable with NO ante--Ive been averaging 6000/yr


in 1-5 stud with no ante and a $1 bring-in The 5-10 game is tough in Vegas.


Try looking for a table where you do not,on the average, have more than three players staying in on 3rd st.

in a 1-5 game. If that's the case,you will be able to protect your big pairs. However,you might have a long dry spell waiting for a descent 3rd st. hand to play--in the mean time,the ante will be bleeding your stack. However,table selection is probably

your best shot.


In La. and Miss. the 1-5 stud game has no ante. Before going into a 1-5 game with an ante,I would be playing a 10-20 game.


Sitting Bull

Avoid the 1-5 game at the Mirage. It is a joke. There really is no use in playing it with the structure they have. ( winner of previous pot is the forced low for next pot ) Play the 1-5 at the Bellagio.


Later,


CJ

Those 1-5 games with the 50 cent ante are great games in CT. Lots of action and you can make some good money. I do..


Later,


CJ

Larry, Larry, Larry...


The 1-5 game with a 50 cent ante is VERY beatable....

The key is adjusting to the ante, which most players don't do..

I do agree that table selection is important in that game for several reasons which I wont get into.


I make about the same in 1-5 (in that game) as I do in 5-10 with a much smaller standard deviation.


Later,


CJ

Patrick and CJ, you are both speaking my language. Here's my perception of how to play the $1-5: It's based on patience and selective aggression. Big pair live early against no limpers just a call or $1 raise. Big pair late against 2 or more limpers, $5 raise. Live flush or high straight draw, limp and call either a $1 raise head-up or a larger raise with three or more other players. Rolled, limp. Three high cards with live ace in late position against no limpers or one limper, $5 raise to steal. Ace showing, selective steal raises depending on your other cards, postion, etc. Folded to you last to act, raise $1 against bring in. Let me know your thoughts and any other plays you find useful. Also, my perception of the people in these games is that the "average" player is a man in his 50s. Some of these guys are pretty tough, some are ridiculously loose. In general they tend to be more aggressive than the 1-3 games, but not necessarily more skilled. However there are some very strong players in 1-5, which you almost never see in 1-3.

Any advice on good times to play at Mohegan or Foxwoods? Saturday nights? Friday nights? Others?

I have to disagree with your assessment of the 5-10 game in vegas. The 5-10 at the Mirage (bellagio has 4-8) is tight but also easy to beat. The 4-8 game at bellagio is on par with foxwoods for the best game I have played in.


Pat

Hello, CJ,

I do not know about the 1-5 "button" game at the Mirage,but I can tell you about the 1-5,10 and 1-5,10,10 "button"game we had on the old Flamingo Casion boat in New Orleans.

The Sitting Bulls all had a field day with players who were on the "vacation mentality".

I averaged 12000.00/yr. in those games.

I would not rule out a 1-5 stud "button" game.

Usually ,in a 1-5 stud game, more than 50% of the players are playing just to enjoy themselves and have some fun.

Whether it is a "button" game or a bring-in game,there might be some good fishing for the Sitting Bulls.

If the table is tight, bluff and semi-bluff more on the eary Sts.

If the game is loose,wait for very good hands to play.

The President's Casino in Biloxi, Miss. has a 1-5 stud "button" game. I usually earn enough to pay for my room and meals.


A Sitting Bull

Hello, Doc,

I believe that the key to winning in any limit game--whether it is a 1-5 or 20-40, is to try to evaluate the opposition.

If the field consists of average players who are playing tightly,bull and semi-bull more on the early Sts.

If your bluff is successful,do not show your hand. Bluff more frequently than is mathematically correct.

If you are caught, tighten up. You then have advertising value

from average observant players.

If the game is rather loose,wait like a "baby-sitter" for the "goods".

In a 1-5 stud game, there are a lot of accidental advertising or"tells". Look for these--especially on the early Sts.


Happy Pokering, Sitting Bull

PS "bull" and "semi-bull"---not mispelled

Hello, MrB,

I remembered about 3 years ago, I brought it in for 1 in a 1-5 stud game.

When most of the field folded to me except David"Santa Claus"Compton who raised while sitting on my right,I did a pure bluff raise on 3rd. and bet out on 4th. He folded.

Don't assume the 1 raise will knock out the bring-in.

Of course,Santa claus knew of my reputation as a "Sitting Bull".


Happy Pokering,


Sitting Bull

Dear Carl,

I am sorry that I am late in answering your post.You said that you really enjoy the game of stud, and that you want to improve, but are only able to play approximately one time a month.

So here is your answer: contact Bob Wilson at www.wilsonsw.com (http://www.wilsonsw.com) order his LATEST seven card stud simulated game for p.c.s. Set the 7 opponents that you will be playing against by choosing out of the 50 or so possible opponents 7 low limit loose players and one tight quality player (ie jersey Joe) ( I played that game on an average of two hours a day for 3 years)But since you are not as "nuts" as I am, a half an hour a day should be plenty. I put my computer next to my bed where I watch TV at night and then if a program is boring, or during the commercials I would challenge Rosseau stone. Rosetta is simulated "expert "

opponent that can be set to play the same exact hands that you do for from 50 to 200 hands. It's a very learning experience when you play 100 hand and loose $150 dollars and then find out that "an expert " would have lost $200 dollars. Play against Rosetta until you can beat her approx 60% of the time. Also when you play the simulated game program it so that the expert advisor plays with you, and every time you make a play that the "expert" disagrees with, he will tell you and tell you what he recommends you to do. When you disagree with his advice, always hit the status button to see why the computer feels that because of your position, hand strength, or opponents board that you are making a mistake. When you can beat Rosetta 50% of the time you will be playing with a technique that is better than 95% of the opponents you will be playing against at the 1-4 or 1-5 table.

Also get a copy of Roy Wests book "32 lessons in how to win at low limit stud" (I can't remember the exact title.)The best thing to do is to read the book out loud into a tape recorder and then play the tapes whenever you have free time, like as you are riding in the car, or doing your work out. You don't have to pay any attention to listening to the book your subconscious will eventually pick it up.Play the tapes until you know exactly what Roy is going to say before he says it. VERY IMPORTANT Roy states that his book is designed to be used in low limit games. When you advance to tougher games you are going to have to make some significant changes in your game. At that time get and tape "stud for advanced players " By Malmuth Zee and Sklanskie. And finally when you find a hand that you question how to play write it down and post it here at www.twoplustwo (http://www.twoplustwo) and discuss it with the forum members. This forum is a tremendous asset for the learning player.If you don't take full advantage of it you are really missing something. There is almost never a time that I visit it that I don't learn something that I can incorporate into one of the games that I play. Mason Ray and Dave of course are world class experts but there are several of the other members that give superb advice.One time years ago I paid an expert several hundred dollars for advice (it was almost a total waste) and I could have gotten much better advice for free had this web sight been available back then, by just reading the questions and answers.

Well there it is,You are probably thinking "hell Doc that's a lot of work" and it is, but remember that only approximately 3% of Casino poker players are long term winners (2 well known studies were done for over one years time)If your goal is to get into that 3% that win at the game. It's going to take a lot of work. But that's one of the appealing things about our game to those those players that love a challenge. If your goal is not to be a winner but just to have fun and decrease the amount of money that you loose at the game (and there is NOTHING wrong with that as a goal) Then play the Wilson simulator whenever you can and read Roys book approx 3 times (studies have shown that you really can't full understand a technical book until you have read it at least 3 times)That the reason so many players will say well I read (a book that is world class on poker)such and such and got nothing out of it. Or "it made my game worse" (a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing)

But if you take the harder road and do what I have recommended you will be able to go to any Casino in the world that is posting a low limit high 7 card stud game and you will do well. You won't always win, but by the end of the evening your opponents will know that you are a very solid player who gave them a h..l of a run for their money.

"Good luck favors the prepared mind"


Most sincerely ,


Doc AZ

Dear Sitting Bull'

You make an excellent point about varying your game according to your opposition.


Thank you,


DocAZ

Dear Sitting Bull'

I congratulate you for making $6,000 a year at 1-5 stud.

I know how hard that is, because the first year that I retired from medicine I played that game at that level and made a similar amount. And I know what a quality game and discipline it takes to beat the rake. Its too bad that you weren't here in Scottsdale several years ago when they posted a 3-6 stud game with NO ANTE. The facility was close to the University and if played well, that game should have been tight, but it never was. With your success at 1-5. You would have loved that game. No Ante big pots should have been right up your alley. Unfortunately when Casino Arizona combined their two poker rooms into one they dropped that game.

Nothing is perfect for ever,

Doc AZ

Hello,Doc,

As usual,your post is excellent.

However,I was shocked at the statement: "You do not have to pay any attention to listening to the book;your subscious will eventually pick it up."

Does that mean I will pick up what a teacher says if he repeats himself several times--even if mind wonders off the subject?

Is this a scientific fact? does osmosis really work in this case?

I was under the impression that I must at least make a concerted effort to focus my attention on the tape lectures. Am I working too hard?

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ********************************************* Other informative works in improving one's play: "Theory of Poker" by David sklansky,RayZee,and Malmuth;"Seven Card Stud" by Konstantin Ottmer;and the articles in www.cardplayer.com (http://www.cardplayer.com).


Happy Pokering,


Sitting Bull

Excellent advice Doc -- I've already got Turbo and play it frequently, although not head-up against rosetta. I also have Roy West's book and have read it several times. I am not a pro or semi-pro, nor do I aspire to be one. I am a (fairly) serious recreational player and my goal is to break even in games that are high enough to be stimulating. Right now I am better than break even career in 1-3 by about $2/hour in about 90 hours -- ie. not much -- and getting ready to try 1-5. I'd concluded that you have to play so tight to win in $1-3 that it's dull, but thought I might be missing something. But the comments I've gotten from players here seem to indicate the rake and the lack of an ante make ultra-tight play the key to winning. I will probably be able to do a bit better by tightening my standards, but since enjoying the game is a major motivation for me I will try to move up to games where the rake is less and an ante makes more aggressive, interesting play correct in a wider range of situations.