One more SCSFAP question

One more question where apparent contradiction


1)If high card raises and you have live pair with higher live kicker, you should usually reraise if can get it heads-up. "Otherwise, normally call." P.45


BUT LATER


2) A hand like (Q-5)5 should normally only be played heads-up. If a T raises and J calls you should probably fold. P.63


Isn't this contradictory? What have I missed here? I had thought that the latter was correct. Did the authors mean "otherwise normally call" above. I thought the whole point was that if you can't get these pair/live overcard hands heads-up you should fold them.

1)If high card raises and you have live pair with higher live kicker, you should usually reraise if can get it heads-up. "Otherwise, normally call." P.45


If for some reason I don't think I can get heads-up, I'll fold. 90% of the time you should Raise

and will be successful in getting a heads-up pot.


2) A hand like (Q-5)5 should normally only be played heads-up. If a T raises and J calls you should probably fold. P.63


In this situation what they mean is that you should fold unless you think a re-raise can knock the Ten out. This would make you heads-up and in a good position. Evaluation of the player w/the Ten up is the key here. Is he tight and conservative, and willing to muck his probable Tens from a call and a raise from higher upcards? If so raise. If not folding is in my opinion is correct.


Knock'em Dead


Mike

Mike has this right. ONce pots become multiway, making two pair isn't such a great hand anymore. That is the probability of you winning is frequently going down faster than the pot is getting larger.

The point is that a caller of a raise is less likely to fold, so that it is unlikely you will be able to get it heads up. Contrast this to the situation where you are able to get the first raise in.


Pat

I'm really dissecting this SCSFAP and it is unbelievably good advice. Its very complex though and understandably very difficult to write because there are so many variables. I outlined it and this has made it much easier. I just played 15-30 stud last night and made $650- playing just like you taught. What a great investment! Thank you very much.


But I'm still confused over one point which is so vital that I need to ensure that I grasp it completely and I hope you can help me out Mr. Malmuth, Mr. Zee, or Mr. Sklansky.


The situation is when you have a pair with a live overcard kicker.


1) "If a high card raises in front of you and you have a live pair with an even higher live kicker, you should usually reraise if you can get it heads-up. OTHERWISE, NORMALLY CALL." Pg. 45


Then,


2) "Suppose a ten raises, you have (5-Q)5 and jack has already called. YOU SHOULD USUALLY FOLD." Pg. 62


Aren't these the same examples? The first says that reraising is better, but if you can't get it heads-up you should still call. The second says that if you can't get it heads-up then you shouldn't even play.


What am I missing here? The second case if further distinguished in that it says, "if the jack had not played, your hand becomes playable and you should at least call." I don't mean to muddy everything up by adding this but perhaps this is a hint or maybe its just something else I missed.

I think the answer is in the specific situations you confront. For example,in the 5Q5 example, the Q is not a strong kicker, and the T and J may have other cards you need. On teh other hand, if you have 5A5 and a Q raises now if you make two pair with the A no other two pair can beat you. This is not the case with a Q. In a threeway pot Q's up is significantly weaker than A's up.


Also, in the first example there is no coldcaller of the raise, so it is more likely that you can get everyone to fold. Once a players calls the raise he is not likely to fold for one more bet. The first example also is not specific in teh book to a small pair with a high kicker. The first example to call is something you might do with a hand like TQ/T, or if you have two suited cards. This is a different situation than a small pair. If you have the TQT hand you dont really mind if a hand like 969 calls since you have to improve anyway so you still have an earn at his expense. WIth 5Q5 you do not want medium pairs calling a raise by a probable higher pair.


Hope this helps,

Pat

I don't see how Mike has this right though. In the book you say that even if you can't get it heads up you should "normally call." Today, you're saying if you can't get it heads up you should fold. Which is correct?