Mason's Review Of TJ's CPL&NLH

[Al Mirpuri]

TJ Cloutier might reply to Mason's three pronged criticism of his book in GT&OT with:

1. You say I name drop. At least the people in my books have real names as opposed to the people you talk about ie Adventurer.

2. You say I put too much filler material in it. Well, if I had entitled it Championship Pot Limit And No Limit Holdem And Other Topics it would have been okay then.

3. I give qualified assent to the notion of "bunching" in Holdem and you give a qualified denial of this. It sounds like a Mexican Standoff to me.

[Both are wrong. Bunching has no effect in Holdem. I think the Monty Hall Paradox has some bearing on this. I misunderstanding of which would allow someone to think "bunching" had an effect in Holdem.]

4. You give my book a six yet give Tournament Poker Strategies an eight. Get real. You should be put in prison for still publishing that book.

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
You give my book a six yet give Tournament Poker Strategies an eight.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the 2004 edition of Gambling Theory and Other Topics the rating of Poker Tournament Strategies has been changed to a 6.

MM

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You give my book a six yet give Tournament Poker Strategies an eight.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the 2004 edition of Gambling Theory and Other Topics the rating of Poker Tournament Strategies has been changed to a 6.

MM

[/ QUOTE ]

You are now caught in a contradiction. You only advocate readers to buy a book that has a rating of 8 or better. You still have Suzuki's book in print. Are you printing it so that your readers can refuse to purchase it? Or are there only previously printed copies of Suzuki's book on bookstore shelves.

[Mason Malmuth]

No. We recently bought out a new edition. Plus I like the money.

I have always stated that books rated 6 or 7 have value as supplemental reading.

MM

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
TJ Cloutier might reply to Mason's three pronged criticism of his book in GT&OT with:

1. You say I name drop. At least the people in my books have real names as opposed to the people you talk about ie Adventurer.

2. You say I put too much filler material in it. Well, if I had entitled it Championship Pot Limit And No Limit Holdem And Other Topics it would have been okay then.

3. I give qualified assent to the notion of "bunching" in Holdem and you give a qualified denial of this. It sounds like a Mexican Standoff to me.

[Both are wrong. Bunching has no effect in Holdem. I think the Monty Hall Paradox has some bearing on this. I misunderstanding of which would allow someone to think "bunching" had an effect in Holdem.]

4. You give my book a six yet give Tournament Poker Strategies an eight. Get real. You should be put in prison for still publishing that book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to defend Mason as he can obviously do so himself. But the difference b/w the adventurer story and TJ's name-dropping is the adventurer story has a moral, TJ is just telling stories. One can gain insight into their play from Mason's Adventurer story, whereas one can only gain entertainment from TJ's stories. Nothing wrong with either, just differences, that's all.

BTW, TJ's book sucks and it's becoming more apparent how crappy it is in today's environment (where there are bigger tournaments and better players). I guarantee you that if you play the way TJ's book advocates you'll be anted and blinded out of every tournament you play, bar maybe 1 out of 100 where the cards run you over.

Now, nothing against TJ as a player but the book is just not good, that's all there is to it and to even "compare" the book to TPFAP is insane. There are so many more things that can be learned from TPFAP than one can learn from TJ's garbage it's ridiculous.

But, I have a feeling that we won't be talking about either or these books in about two months once Dan's book hits the market and SS2 makes it way out. These two will probably also obsolete the only two currently valued works in the genre (the NL section of S/S and the Ciaffone/Reuben offering).

BTW, if bunching has no effect in hold 'em, as you claim the Mason is right, regardless of the reason why, correct?

[maurile]

What do you mean by "bunching"? Does it have anything to do with the utterly stupid, inane, donkified idea of "clumping" that Jerry Patterson wrote about in the context of blackjack?

[burningyen]

Caro has written about bunching. It's the idea that as more players fold pre-flop, the more likely it is that a player yet to act has a strong hand.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[Both are wrong. Bunching has no effect in Holdem. I think the Monty Hall Paradox has some bearing on this. I misunderstanding of which would allow someone to think "bunching" had an effect in Holdem.]

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought bunching is the idea that if lots of people had folded then good hands become more likely in those remaining to act.

What's the probability that UTG has AA before he acts? 1:221

What's the probability that SB has AA before he acts if 8 people have already folded?

Now we know that 8 cards are not aces. If we knew nothing else then the probability SB had AA would be 1:158 but we do have a bit more information as we also know that 8 cards are not Kings or Queens etc. The probability of AA is still a fair bit higher than 1:221.

The probability of other big hands (KK, QQ, AK etc) for SB is also higher. I don't know if this effect is ever actually much use in practice.

chez

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
The probability of other big hands (KK, QQ, AK etc) for SB is also higher. I don't know if this effect is ever actually much use in practice.

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't. It has a little effect, but other things tend to balance it out.

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, TJ's book sucks and it's becoming more apparent how crappy it is in today's environment (where there are bigger tournaments and better players). I guarantee you that if you play the way TJ's book advocates you'll be anted and blinded out of every tournament you play, bar maybe 1 out of 100 where the cards run you over.

Now, nothing against TJ as a player but the book is just not good, that's all there is to it and to even "compare" the book to TPFAP is insane. There are so many more things that can be learned from TPFAP than one can learn from TJ's garbage it's ridiculous.

But, I have a feeling that we won't be talking about either or these books in about two months once Dan's book hits the market and SS2 makes it way out. These two will probably also obsolete the only two currently valued works in the genre (the NL section of S/S and the Ciaffone/Reuben offering).

BTW, if bunching has no effect in hold 'em, as you claim the Mason is right, regardless of the reason why, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with much of what you write. You really do have to sift the wheat from the chaff with Cloutier and there is a lot of chaff. TPFAP is fundamentally sound but the fact that there is very little guidance on how to play any given hand is its major weakness. Moreover, there is some value in having read what the opposition have read.

I believe bunching has no effect because the idea of bunching is that a likely hand will either be upfront or near the back and if it is not upfront then it is near the back. However, the likelhihood of a hand not being dealt combined with the chance that half the time it was dealt it would be upfront means that it is more likely that it is not present rather than it is round the back.

Reading the book for a second time it is notable that a winning player could have so many incorrect ideas about the game.

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
No. We recently bought out a new edition. Plus I like the money.

I have always stated that books rated 6 or 7 have value as supplemental reading.

MM

[/ QUOTE ]

Just another snake oil salesman then.