STUD SITUATION..

Here is a situation I was recently in.. Game is 1-5 stud.


Situation involves river play. Rather than get into all specifics, I will just mention the 6th street boards of the three primary contestants to the pot; as my question for this forum lies in the play of the river.


6th street boards..

#1 (XX)JJ88


ME (99)9J82


#2 (XX)KJ95- all clubs


I listed opponents in order of position. ( notice I am in the middle )


Pot is large as I was aggressively raising with my rolled nines. Person with 4 clubs on board always just calling bets, never raises.


RIVER:


JJ88 bets in to me again ( after I had raised him previously on 6th street ). I did not improve...


What's my play?


Later,


CJ

Fold, there's no question here. In fact, the raise on 6th is insane considering that the four clubs board is behind you. You probably should have folded on sixth. It's a tough laydown because when your rolled up, you figure the pot is yours, but there's absolutely nothing you can beat at this point. There's no way you can win.


Peace

Goodie

There's no way I'm folding here for 1 bet.


If I had a board of JJ88 and didn't have a full-house, I would still bet into two players even if one raised me on sixth street and the other had a four flush showing. I would do it hoping to convince them I had a full house and get them to lay down superior hands such as straights and flushes. If the raise me, then I'll make the laydown.


Did player #1 3-bet on sixth street? If not, then he probably didn't have the full house on sixth street. Maybe he caught a miracle 8 on the river or maybe he had a pocket pair and caught that rank on the river to make a full house. Or maybe he caught a miracle 9 on the river to make a straight. The key is that player #1 is playing with extremely dead cards and if he didn't 3-bet on sixth street then he HAD to get lucky on the river to beat you.


Of course, I'd be worred about the player behind you. He may have chosen to never raise with a flush since he sees the board of JJ88 and you've been raising with a hand that can beat Js & 8s. Of course, he may not have the flush and that's the reason he hasn't raised.


You should at least call.


Raising? Only if you think the player behind you can fold a flush. Most players won't

Dynasty,


Player #1 DID NOT 3 bet on 6th street.


Later,


CJ

Hello CJ,

The key words are: "The pot is large on 6Th"

Even if you call 6th and 7th at this point,you are not making a serious error. However,if you have the winning hand at the show down and fold on either 6th or 7th.,then the error is a catastrophe.


Sitting Bull

This situation is clear-cut. You call and pray your hands a winner. Most likely its not. It was suggested by someone that you should definitly fold, which would be absurd. If your opponent dosen't have that fifth club, I 'd bet your a winner. I'd be worried about the four flush behind you way more than the Jacks and Eights that bet into you..Alot of players will bet that board regardless if what showing is all they end up with. Doubtful, but possible, that he caught the case eight or made a strait. I'd like to hear how it turned out CJ.

Goodie,


I disagree with your analysis to fold on 6th.


"but there's absolutely nothing you can beat at


this point. There's no way you can win."


How do you come to this analyis? I agree that the four clubs are not an ideal board to be against; especially given that most my sidecards are dead. But given the size of the pot here, an incorrect fold would be a catostrophic error. If you always folded trips on 6th against a 4 flush board, that is extremely weak play.


Later,

CJ

Mike,


I agree that I was more worried about the four flush than the two

pair. That is one of the reasons I raised 6th. If my opponent doesn't have it,he is paying double.


Later,

CJ

Well thanks to those of you who responded.


Well I decided to just call the bet on the river.


Sure enough both players got lucky on the river. Both players started with absolutely nothing. Actually the person with all the clubs started with A-K-Q with A-Q hearts in hole and decided to chase for a 10 with her overcards. The person with Jacks started with Jack-shit. ( and called a raise on 3rd with it )


Player #1 caught the case 8 to make 8's full.

Player #2 caught a club to make the flush.


The reason I called was twofold. 1) I could have easily beaten the original bettor. He was an idiot. 2) The pot was too large to fold for 1 bet.


My problem is definitely the person with the clubs. Sure enough, I was correct in my raise on 6th by charging my opponent the most while still drawing. I am actually surprised by that call without a made hand. That raise was screaming rolled-up. I did fail to mention that there were a few clubs that were dealt out so I never put that opponent on a flush draw. ( Actually had that opponent on KK with good kicker )


On the river, If I were against a good opponent, I might actually RAISE the river. ( If I were against an opponent capable of laying down a flush ) I certainly don't want somebody who is capable of this laydown to simply overcall and win the pot. However we rarely encounter those opponents in 1-5 so raising was out of the question here. My only hope was to call.


Any other comments welcomed.


Later,

CJ

Here is an important question for you: Why are you still playing 1-5!!!!


The answers to your question depends on how large the pot actually is. "If the pot is large you should call" is good advice but it does not mean you should call a 10 bet pot with this hand. Certainly it is a mistake to fold on sixth street since you have a good chance of filling and it is less likely that the J's are full.


Lets say you were just up against the flush draw. What were the chance of him getting the flush? Considering the chances that the J's did not full and were not already full(a judgment call) should give you an idea about how large the pot needs to be. Obviously you do not do this calculation at the table, but this consideration should give you an idea about whether the pot was large enough. My guess is that it probably was, but you do not give enough info.


Also, you do not say how you know that they both caught on the river. Did they tell you or are you intuiting it from the play of the hand. Intuiting it from their play is questionable at 1-5, since they likely had no thought whatsoever about how to play their hands. The clubs could easily had a flush the whole way and just been afraid of the J's board.


Pat

CJ,


I know you weren't happy w/ the result of both your opponents hitting their hands, but there's no question you played the entire hand the right way. You ended up with the right idea pertaining to your 6th street raise and definitely made the right play by calling on the river. Your opponents did get lucky indeed. Keep playing like you are though, and in the long run you'll have your money back along with some of theirs.


Knock'em Dead


Mike

Pat,


Actually the person with the flush needed to learn how to shuffle her hand better. That's how I knew it was the river. Plus she did admit it was the river in some talk afterwards.


The guy who filled with the 8's was very aggressive. If he was full B4 the river, he would have re-raised 6th, especially against the 4-flush knowing she would pay off.


As far as the pot size, you are correct that I really didn't give enough information in the post, but there were a few other callers on 3rd and 4th street and this was an ante game, plus with the three way action till river pot was quite large. I can't remember exactly but I would estimate pot was close to $75 B4 rake on 6th street.


As far as me playing $1-5, I find the $1-5 games where I play to be more profitable than the $5-10. Not to mention I am not a fan of the $5-10 structure. I don't have the bankroll to play $10-20 although I do dabble on occassion. Also, I wont move up to play $10-20 on a regular basis until I have at least a 600 BB bankroll. I actually don't play too much anymore, I have been working so many hours at my job in the last 6 months that it has all but killed my poker playing.


Later,


CJ

Where do you play that the 1-5 games are more profitable? That seems strange to me but I guess it is possible. It is certainly nottrue where I play in the east. The 5-10 structure should not deter you, since the better players wil be able to properly adjust to the structure,providing a greater edge. Personally I have no quarrel with the 5-10 structure that I plat, but youmay have a different game.


Good Luck

Pat

Pat,


True that better players can adapt to any structure. My problem with 5-10 is that in most games I play in, they are very loose and difficult to thin the field with a raise on 3rd street. While I have no problem adjusting stategically to this, I believe it requires a larger bankroll than I currently have.


The 1-5 games I play in are usually filled with lots of fish. I find that I get paid off more on numerous hands. I mean lets look at the thread I started here, I think the play of others speaks for itself.


Thanks for the comments,


Later,


CJ

Pat,


I should note that when I played $5-10 at The Mirage in Vegas, I thought that game was one of the greatest $5-10 games I was ever in. I think that $5-10 with a $1 bring in as compared to a $2 bring in is a much better structure. Also, the players were not as wild and crazy in that game. I am looking forward to playing in that game again in December when I am out in Vegas.


Later,


CJ