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View Full Version : Is there collusion on Party nl one table tournies?


Smoothcall
11-02-2004, 08:43 AM
I play 33 and 55 nl one tables on party and was wondering if any of the regular players in these limits or higher one table nl's have collusion that they have seen. If so if have any names to watch out for. Thanks.

Chief911
11-02-2004, 10:21 AM
Its inevitable that there is collusion occasionally. Is it happening all the time on lots of tables? I doubt it.

I would imagine if we knew names, we'd have sent them to Party by now.

I think its one of the things you know might happen online, but I can say I have RARELY ever even thought that collusion was taking place, and most of the time its of the obvious type where people are chip dumping (And talking about it) to a low stack.

Nick

hobo
11-02-2004, 11:21 AM
Yes, there is collusion. I know people that have colluded and a friend and I colluded last night on the $30 tables. We colluded on 2 different SNGs and it will be interesting to see if the Party software catches us.

Basically, what we did is have an IM client running during the tourney. We then communicated our hands back and forth. Where collusion will likely work the best is with the marginal hands.

For instance, when the tourney got down to five people, my friend was dealt KJ and I was dealt K,10. These are semi-decent hands on the bubble, but given that it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to fold these hands with the stack sizes we had, it was an easy fold for each of us. I believe that collusion can help with the marginal hands like these because no play is obviously correct.

In the second tourney, the game was down to four people when my friend was dealt Q,10s on the button. He was shortstacked at the time and it didn't appear that he would make it into the money. I had pocket queens in the BB and he went allin so that I could take the rest of his chips. His dump made me the chip leader and I went on to win the tourney.

This was the first time that I have colluded online. My friend and I basically decided to do it on a whim, and we probably won't do it again.

At first, I didn't think we would be able to collude in a manner that wouldn't be detected by the software. However, collusion is definitely helpful in making decisions with marginal hands on the bubble. It's the hands where either a push or a fold could be correct that collusion can help you make the right decision.

Having said that, I'm not sure that collusion is worthwhile at a single-table SNG. There is too much luck involved and you both need to finish ITM to make it worthwhile.

However, I could see collusion being very helpful in a multi. If both you and your fellow colluder are able to make it past the first table, the extra information you get throughout the rest of the tourney could easily help propel both of you into the money.

Prior to this experiment, I wasn't too worried about collusion online. I figured the software could catch it easily. Now, I do believe it can be done in a manner that would be hard for the software to detect and that it can actually help the colluders make it into the money.

La Brujita
11-02-2004, 12:14 PM
Hobo,

I hate to say it in such words but I think you are basically scum and should get off the boards.

I hope nobody here gives you any poker advice and if I had the power I would ban you from posting (but I don't).

Piss off.

Prickly Pete
11-02-2004, 12:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In the second tourney, the game was down to four people when my friend was dealt Q,10s on the button. He was shortstacked at the time and it didn't appear that he would make it into the money. I had pocket queens in the BB and he went allin so that I could take the rest of his chips. His dump made me the chip leader and I went on to win the tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

If all cheaters do it this poorly, I don't think there's too much to worry about.

PrayingMantis
11-02-2004, 12:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hobo,

I hate to say it in such words but I think you are basically scum and should get off the boards.

I hope nobody here gives you any poker advice and if I had the power I would ban you from posting (but I don't).

Piss off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you on this. Very annoying post, coming from some low-life.

It's possible that this guy is even posting on this very board under another handle, and used "hobo" only for this one post. That's a disturbing thought.

I wonder if it makes sense to contact party about it, and tell them to look for a particular hand from last night, in which QT lost to QQ, on the bubble of a $30 SNG. I'd be very glad if this guy and his friend would be recognized as colluders.

JasonDB
11-02-2004, 12:50 PM
I also hate what Hobo has done. But before everyone says ban him, we might consider that its helpful to hear how these scumbags collude. There is some utility in hearing about the information.

PrayingMantis
11-02-2004, 12:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But before everyone says ban him, we might consider that its helpful to hear how these scumbags collude.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, it's not like it's rockets science or anything. They dump chips, they have more information about possible outs, they play soft on each other. And even if they collude in a stupid way, it's still something you don't want to take place at your table, because their combined ROI while cheating, is probably bigger than if they didn't cheat. And it's taken out of your ROI.

poindexter
11-02-2004, 01:23 PM
like hobo said Both players have to make it into the money to make collusion profitable in a sng. Im going to assume he is making this statement from his own experience. In other words he is indiferent to the advantages of collusion because he is not good enough to beat the game while colluding. I Havent seen much collusion in the limit sng's ive played in. the few times I have suspected it it was from very bad players. I don't see a way to sucessfully collude without being able to beat the game in the first place. If you are already beating the game then you dont need to cheat.

OPJayhawk
11-02-2004, 01:43 PM
You could probably get away with this a few times, but I am sure the software will detect two players playing the same table an usually high % of the time.

JasonDB
11-02-2004, 02:24 PM
That is the point I am interested in. Just how many times does it take for the sites to pick up on this? The fear of collusion has already taken me off of the 6max NL games. The SNGs and MTTs are the way to go for me.

Drac
11-02-2004, 02:34 PM
Even if you report a clear case of collusion Party won't do squat. Playin a SNG, 2 guys that seemed to be working together from the get go only gets more suspicious as the game goes on. At one point, 3 handed, first guy goes all in for 420, I fold SB, BB (already in for 400) folds his hand. HUH? They never played a hand against each other and were on the same table together again 5 minutes later. I reported this to Party along with the HH and mentioning specific hands and they said there wasn't enough evidence to do anything.

Jason Strasser
11-02-2004, 02:36 PM
PM,

I understand your frustration. However, I've accepted the fact that colluding exists, and that you must get around it. Your current ROI figures already account for colluding that exists.

But don't get all Grannie Mae. Don't bring more attention to someone who has one post count, it's just not worth your energy.

-Jason

PrayingMantis
11-02-2004, 03:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I understand your frustration. However, I've accepted the fact that colluding exists, and that you must get around it. Your current ROI figures already account for colluding that exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you of course. It's not that I feel frustrated about it, my win rate is great, but it just makes me a little sick that someone posts here such a collusion "report", and doesn't feel there's anything even slightly problematic or wrong about it. I'm not going to waste too much energy on this particular scum, though. Up until now, I was very rarely concernced about collusion in any SNG.

BigHobo
11-02-2004, 03:31 PM
"hobo" is no relation to BigHobo.

ugaistheteam
11-02-2004, 03:37 PM
I wish i could collude away to hobo's house. Guess I love the game too much to cheat it.......

La Brujita
11-02-2004, 04:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I understand your frustration. However, I've accepted the fact that colluding exists, and that you must get around it. Your current ROI figures already account for colluding that exists.


[/ QUOTE ]

Jason,

I gotta say for once I disagree with you. If you own a store you factor in day to day shoplifting into your bottom line, but if someone mentions they just shoplifted in your store yesterday you should be pissed.

Jason Strasser
11-02-2004, 04:33 PM
LB,

For the record, I do not support collusion /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I don't understand your analogy though. If I am in a game with someone, and they collude and I prove it, of COURSE I'd do something and report them.

However, on these boards, if someone with ONE post who I've never played with (well, I can't be sure) claims to collude, well then I'm just going to ignore them, because I know people like them exist.

It's as if you owned a store, and met someone who claimed to have robbed a store before. You obviously wouldn't think very highly of them, but you wouldn't want to waste any valuable energy yelling at them.

Or at least maybe it's how I think.

-Jason

La Brujita
11-02-2004, 04:43 PM
Jason, of course I didn't think you support collusion. Frankly I am in a pissy mood because of the election tonight-but I don't think I implied that.

Let me refine the analogy, if you grow corn in a storehouse and many others store their corn there, if someone told you they stole from the storehouse you should be pissed-even if it was most likely not your corn and you know stealing does occur. I would be mad because this person has the ability and likely the intent to steal again when it may well be your corn.

Completely off topic, what pisses me off in poker more than being outdrawn is when you assume you won when multitabling look over and see the pot pushed somewhere else. Someone check called the nut straight to my flopped set on the river and I just about wanted to kill him. Right after that someone check called on all streets with AA against my KK.

PrayingMantis
11-02-2004, 04:50 PM
The thing is, IMO, that after getting pissed by that colluder guy, I don't think there's actually much to do in this case. Party need hand #"s and name of players to check it out.

I just wonder, now, and it's a question to Jason - wouldn't you contact party if you felt there's a serious chance 2 players were colluding at your table? Or would you just let it go, and not waste energies on them?

Jason Strasser
11-02-2004, 05:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If I am in a game with someone, and they collude and I prove it, of COURSE I'd do something and report them.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, yes, I would.

-Jason

PrayingMantis
11-02-2004, 05:12 PM
I missed that line of yours. OK so the bottom line is that we see it in a very similar way. Now let's just move on and talk about poker. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

St8Gate
11-03-2004, 09:00 AM
I noticed what I felt was collusion a couple nights ago at Party on a $10 single table. Two players on either side of the table that acknowledged each other at the start of the game, then later in the first round started raising/reraising each other like crazy to the point that it seemed obvious it was intentional.
Was it collusion or just idiotic bahavior...I dont know.

tigerite
11-03-2004, 09:06 AM
Someone last night accused me, and the two others at the table, of cheating. Bizarre, as I'd never seen or played with them before. Oh, and I called one of their all-ins with QJ (he had 33 and hit a set), after doing a min-raise from UTG. If we were colluding (I had much the bigger stack) surely I'd just have folded. Silly person, didn't have a clue.

Subby
11-03-2004, 10:41 AM
Shortstacked late on the button with QTs seems like an auto-push to me. It would strike me as collusion if he refrained from pushing because his buddy had QQ...

GrannyMae
11-03-2004, 04:52 PM
But don't get all Grannie Mae. Don't bring more attention to someone who has one post count, it's just not worth your energy.

while his post sickens me, i would not waste the energy on a 1 time poster. it is not worth the stress for me to try and have an intelligent conversation with him.

we all know that collusion is happening all around us. it is when someone who is a known part of this community admits to being a dirtbag that the Granny attack starts. as of now, he is simply a troll (of the highest order)

PuertoKid
11-03-2004, 07:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hobo,
I hate to say it in such words but I think you are basically scum and should get off the boards.
I hope nobody here gives you any poker advice and if I had the power I would ban you from posting (but I don't).
Piss off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm absolutely sure this kind of collusion happens all the time. I don't think it helps a lot in SNG tournaments except, as the poster say, in marginal cases: "Hey, I got 77", "Yeah, well I got 72 off and I'm folding"

In the long term, it is probably helpful in limit games (partner has AA so you fold your AK).

IM traffic is not currently encrypted, so any of the poker client software could monitor it if they wanted to. Of course, there is nothing wrong with friends playing at the same table and chatting on IM. So the software would have to look for some tell-tale signs and alert someone for further investigation if they found typical card lingo.

dolohov
11-03-2004, 09:02 PM
I play $109 sit n go's all the time and I haven't seen any definate, obvious collusion.

What I have seen a couple of times which has upset me is very "friendly" play between 2 opponents. My guess is they are just regular players who are good and want to avoid a confrentation before the $$$ but it is concerning and wrong when they check down against each other to the river and one of them has the nutz (and you are all-in against them). However I don't know if it really qualifies as "collusion" or just game-theory type strategy to make $$$. ie: tit for tat, u be nice to me and i'll be nice to you.

Personally I find it immoral regardless.

Smoothcall
11-05-2004, 02:13 AM
they should not allow im if both players aare on the same table. why can't they tlk in the party window unless they are up to somthing. If its personnel should be done when not in same game.

PuertoKid
11-05-2004, 02:22 AM
They can't monitor every IM type program. Besides, the party chat window is pretty poor UI.

Penetrater
11-05-2004, 04:33 AM
Collusion does take place everywhere, but PP is so fast paced that I think it would be much less likely there as opposed to some other places.