What do you call preflop raises with in O8?

One situation Zee's book doesn't talk about much is what hands are worth calling a preflop raise with, and recently I've been wondering how important the decision to call a preflop raise in O8 is.


For the record, I don't play many hands for a solid player's preflop raise, if I haven't already called in front of him. Pretty much only stuff with AA2 A23 A24, the better coordinated high card hands, maybe at worst AA3s or A3s4x. Is this too tight? If a lot of people have called (or I expect a lot of people will call), I only loosen up some for low type hands(mostly playing A2s A3s with at least 1 other card 4-6 for backup lows/straights), because I figure my chance to quarter if I make a low has gone up dramatically. If I play a big pair hand with AA or AKK, I will probably reraise if I am first in after the raise and think I can get it heads up or 3 handed.


Against a player who might raise with anything, I tend to ignore the raise (unless I think it's likely to get raised more), throwing away maybe the weakest 10% of stuff I would normally play. I figure my odds haven't changed much in this case, so all that's happening is my fluctuations are going to be higher.


How do the rest of you decide what to play for a raise preflop?


Say the preflop raiser has to have AA A2 or A3, and usually a suit or another low card to go with it, especially with the A3. I find these to be the only hands most decent players raise with preflop, and the A3 much less common unless its AA3. How much is a hand like A34x worth in this situation? A3s45? A25x? How about KKQsJ? KQJT? What hands normally worth a play are you going to ditch for a solid player's raise? Does your position affect your play more or less than if there was no raise? How do your answers change if the table is very loose or very tight?


How about if it's 3-4 bets cold to you, and a solid player is in there for at least 3 cold? Do you play anything less than A23, A24s or AA2s? If so, what?


How about from the big blind, what hands do you call a solid preflop raiser's hand with here? How much does the number of callers influence your decision?


Also, are there types of hands worth reraising with when you are first in after the raiser, that might normally be just a call? How about coordinated big pair (AA, AKK, AKQQ) hands? Any suited AA hands? Any AA2x AA3x hand? Others? How much is your decision affected by how loose the table is?


Now, say the raiser could have literally anything when he raises. Do you ignore the raise and pretend you are just calling one bet, or do you throw your weaker hands away even though the raise doesn't mean much? Which weaker hands do you throw away, if any? A bare A3? 234x? 2345? KKQT? KQQJ? KQsJJ? KQJ9?


Would you reraise him with any of your better hands? What about calling from your blind, when other players have called? What if it was a steal position raise, and everyone folded to you?


How about if it's 3-4 bets cold to you, and no one in is particularly selective of what they play for preflop action, what hands do you play now? Anything worse than A2sxx, A25x, or A34x? If so, what?


Sorry for all the questions, I'm really not trying to make anyone write a novel. /images/wink.gif

Coilean,


This is a post that Pac Bell Buzz, Oh My God Not Again, and Louie Landale would do a good job with, but since I’m up and wired I’ll give it a spin. Hopefully they will come in and straighten us out -;) .


For the record, I don't play many hands for a solid player's preflop raise, if I haven't already called in front of him. Pretty much only stuff with AA2 A23 A24, the better coordinated high card hands, maybe at worst AA3s or A3s4x. Is this too tight?


Assuming the raiser is first in, a lot depends where the raise comes from. Up front expect more aces with either high or good low cards. But in back you will find more raises with A4xx and stuff like that. In Omaha you don’t three bet so much since letting others in with most decent hands will protect your hand if the original raiser is too aggressive.


If a lot of people have called (or I expect a lot of people will call), I only loosen up some for low type hands(mostly playing A2s A3s with at least 1 other card 4-6 for backup lows/straights), because I figure my chance to quarter if I make a low has gone up dramatically./


I think you can also loosen up with decent lows and two good high cards but you do want to be suited to the ace.


If I play a big pair hand with AA or AKK, I will probably reraise if I am first in after the raise and think I can get it heads up or 3 handed..


Don’t try the isolation plays up front since you will usually get a couple others in anyway and you need to show down a hand.


Against a player who might raise with anything, I tend to ignore the raise (unless I think it's likely to get raised more), throwing away maybe the weakest 10% of stuff I would normally play. I figure my odds haven't changed much in this case, so all that's happening is my fluctuations are going to be higher.


I agree. But if you have a dry A2, look for tight limpers in front of the raiser. This will often mean you are playing for one quarter and I would fold if I had to pay two bets.


Say the preflop raiser has to have AA A2 or A3, and usually a suit or another low card to go with it, especially with the A3. I find these to be the only hands most decent players raise with preflop, and the A3 much less common unless its AA3.


I agree that these are the most common solid raising hands after limpers. But most raisers are not that solid so expect a wider range. BTW, I like to raise in back with a suited A3, another low card and a good high card. Right now it seems to easy to put me on A2.


How much is a hand like A34x worth in this situation? A3s45? A25x?


The other weak limpers are giving you equity so you can usually call a raise. Being suited to the ace really matters. If you play A3xy and the flop comes with just a low draw, proceed with caution.


How about KKQsJ? KQJT?


You would prefer to see the flop for one bet but the raiser will usually be going the other way. Once again, if there are many limpers you have some equity so I would call. Try to avoid the weaker paints though.


What hands normally worth a play are you going to ditch for a solid player's raise?


Unsuited A34x, suited A45x and the weaker paints.


Does your position affect your play more or less than if there was no raise? How do your answers change if the table is very loose or very tight?


Position matters less in Omaha then in holdem. If you are in front of the raiser you can usually check a dubious flop and wait and see the action behind. In Omaha, very few rounds get checked through so you don’t have to worry about giving free cards with a pretty good hand.


If tight players are calling tight raisers you must be very strong, suited, and with backup if going low. You can also be very strong on the high only side but folding can’t be bad.


How about if it's 3-4 bets cold to you, and a solid player is in there for at least 3 cold? Do you play anything less than A23, A24s or AA2s? If so, what?


I don’t.


How about from the big blind, what hands do you call a solid preflop raiser's hand with here? How much does the number of callers influence your decision?


Against a large field you can play a speculative hand that needs one good card to fill it in. An example would be K234 suited to the king (you want the ace in the suit to flop with a low card or another suit). An A3xx would be OK but don’t draw unless the deuce flops.


Also, are there types of hands worth reraising with when you are first in after the raiser, that might normally be just a call? How about coordinated big pair (AA, AKK, AKQQ) hands? Any suited AA hands? Any AA2x AA3x hand? Others? How much is your decision affected by how loose the table is?


I don’t think you should be doing much isolation three betting in a GOOD Omaha game. Because of the other players, both you and the original raiser need to hit the flop. If the raiser is too loose let the field help you destroy him. Play top cards that have nut combos. In a tight game it is a lot trickier and I am not that experienced.


Now, say the raiser could have literally anything when he raises. Do you ignore the raise and pretend you are just calling one bet, or do you throw your weaker hands away even though the raise doesn't mean much?


Only throw away the weakest 15% or so as long as there is a field.


Which weaker hands do you throw away, if any?


A bare A3? yes


234x? yes


2345? maybe


KKQT? no


KQQJ? No


KQsJJ? Maybe,


KQJ9? Yes, this hand is weaker then it looks.


What if it was a steal position raise, and everyone folded to you?


I think you can defend head up in Omaha with about 95% of your hands.


How about if it's 3-4 bets cold to you, and no one in is particularly selective of what they play for preflop action, what hands do you play now? Anything worse than A2sxx, A25x, or A34x? If so, what?


The endorphins from my turkey sandwich just kicked in so I'm going to bed. Let’s hope pac bell buzz and oh no not again are up to this one.


Sorry for all the questions, I'm really not trying to make anyone write a novel.


Lucky for you I have a really good Schubert string quartet playing or else I’d be pissed doing all this typing at 2:00 a.m /images/smile.gif .


Regards,


Rick

Rick - You have given an excellent response. Mine will be along different lines.


Coilean’s questions are reasonable to ask - but difficult to answer. Different individuals raise with different hand types and for different, varying reasons. How to best play a given set of cards to a raise depends on what you know about the person doing the raising.


As a simplistic example, suppose you hold 2-3-4-5 on the button and Susie, sitting in the cut-off seat, raises. If you knew Susie only pre-flop raised from that position when holding A-A-2-3 or A-2-3-4, then you might do well to fold your 2-3-4-5. However, if Dianne, instead of Susie, was sitting in the cut-off seat, and if Dianne raised, and if you knew Dianne only pre-flop raised when holding K-Q-J-T, then you might not mind seeing the flop with your 2-3-4-5. (Whether or not to play the hand also would depend on your assessment of your other opponents).


Thus you might do well to fold 2-3-4-5 to a pre-flop raise from Susie, but not to a pre-flop raise from Dianne, while you might do well to fold K-Q-J-T to a pre-flop raise from Dianne, but not from Susie.


In a nutshell, to play Omaha-8 well when facing a raise from an opponent, IMHO, you have to know how that opponent plays. At least in my experience, no two people play Omaha-8 in exactly the same way. As you know, in a typical Southern California loose, low limit game people are often playing all kinds of garbage hands and sometimes raising with them.


Sometimes when people raise they are raising for value, thinking they have the best hand at the table. Other times people who raise do so in order to get a weak player to fold. Other times people who raise are on a blind stealing mission. Other times people who raise seem to be trying to exert dominance over the table, like gorillas beating their chests. Weird.


At different times I might occasionally raise, pre-flop, for some of the reasons given in the previous paragraph, and perhaps for some reasons that do not immediately come to mind. It all depends on the situation for me, much more than on the specific cards I hold. In addition, against good or unknown opponents, I often randomize my betting and raising.


Some individuals I encounter in tough games make frequent pre-flop raises for a while with poor pre-flop raising hands, but then change gears, playing very tightly and only raising, pre-flop, with superior hands. Other individuals randomly vary their play, sometimes pre-flop calling with a given set of cards and sometimes pre-flop raising with the same set of cards. Still other individuals take a bad beat or get irritated and then go on tilt, pre-flop raising with poor starting hands.


Thus how to deal with a pre-flop raise in Omaha-8 is a complex judgment call, depending not only on the cards you hold, but also on what you think your opponent’s cards are and on what you think your opponent’s motive is for making the pre-flop raise.


I realize the foregoing is not the answer Coilean sought. However, since dealing with pre-flop raisers is on a case by case basis, it is difficult to give specific advice based on a particular card holding.


Still, the specific advice you have given in response to Coilean’s questions seems very good.


Buzz

Wow, what a detailed question!


I won't attempt a response to all of it because it is late and I have been working all weekend with a cold to boot, but here are some observations:


1. It's true that Ray Zee's book does not deal with the subject much, but remember that its basic attitude is really really tight, and it also generally assumes opponents capable of making intelligent decisions. So I guess its general message on calling raises would be to play even fewer hands. I would agree with that, and leaving aside "meaningless raise" games, I would be binning considerably more than 10% of stuff I might otherwise play. Certainly I would be leery of a dry A2, and many A3 hands.


Games where raises mean nothing:


2. There are certainly games where raises don't mean much at all, but even the kind of players who play in them have heard of "ace deuce" and regard it as almost compulsory to raise with. It's not that hard to have A2, so I suspect, although I have no proof, that a decent proportion of these "meaningless" raises conceal A2. Those players raise when they feel like it (e.g. they just had a nice beer, or their cards add up to their lucky number, say 27), plus with A2.


3. In games where raises mean little you will probably just have to show down a winner at the end, so stick to hands that will do so.


Moving on more to games where raises signify something:


4. One hand which is a real, real stinker when there has been a raise is 23xx. I would extend that to almost any xx, even 2345. The reason is that the raiser is extremely likely to have one ace (even a "meaningless" raise may very well be an ace, ot two aces), and may possibly have AA2x, or A23. You really could be in immense trouble with your hand. Also, if it looks like it will be heads up, the only way you can have a good shot at low is if an ace comes, when the raiser probably made a pair of aces. 23 is bad enough, but for a raise I think it is unplayable against thinking opponents.


5. A4 is also really pretty horrible. Its main usual value is to take the low with the second nuts if a 2 or 3 flops. If there has been a raise, the chances of doing so go down a lot. I would want outstanding other cards to call with A4. Maybe only another A would get me in (or KK suited), which leads me to:


6. I favour a re-raise with two aces and some other respectable cards in a tight game if there are no callers between the raiser and you. Heads up with aces, especially with position on the raiser, is a nice spot and I would day that the extra bets are worth it to try to get there. It can be a bit like turning up half your hand, but there's not much the other players can do. If the raiser had an ace, and you've got two of them, the only hand anyone behind can come in with is stuff like KQJT, although of course the case ace may be there.


7. It's worth knowing whether there will be more raising after you but if your policy is to play tight usually and even tighter after a raise, I don't worry much. Your hand should be good enough to take further action. If you are still playing marginal stuff after a raise, you do have to worry. Another good reason not to do it.


Big blind:


8. If it's only you and the raiser I believe you can defend liberally. David Sklanksy once posted that you should defend with (I think) your best 60% of hands. He gave no reasoning, though, and personally I have no idea what lurks at the 60th worst percentile as opposed to, say the 55th or 70th. Basically, I think you can play bad hands but not horrendous hands. Does that help? Also, note that if you do play a baddish hand, you have basically three chances: number one, you can fluke a scoop (usually high), which is profitable and may call for some check-raising, number two, you can "rescue" half the pot, which means you put in a risky couple of bets to split the SB (not very nice), and number 3, you win the pot by betting a messy flop which the raiser probably missed, e.g. 99J, and it doesn't matter if you hit or not. If you're not willing and able to do number 3, which is of course bluffing, then be honest with yourself about it and defend less.


High hands


9. About the only fault in Ray Zee's book is that its advice on high hands is a bit inconsistent. My view is that a good high-only hand like KQJT suited is well worth playing pre-flop, either for a small amount, or against a lot of players, or both. It is NOT worth playing against few opponents for a raise(s). So I think this one depends on the number of other players you think will come. If I thought there would be 6 players I would come in even with a really good high hand even if I thought it was going to be capped.


10. I don't think there's a hell of a lot of difference between the various high hands you listed. But you haven't necessarily listed the best ones. Pairs other than KK are not so hot. Better to have all running cards without a pair.


Final thought


11. I quite like the limp-reraise manoeuvre: E.g. you call UTG with A2s34 (you want callers), there is a raise, a couple of cold callers and the BB defends. Now you re-raise: no one is likely to pass, so you keep your callers, but you get extra value. This happens more often with better players, but watch out for it when you call a raise too loosely; you can find yourself calling a cap on the instalment plan!


Oh no!! Not again!