i'm the worst player ever

[Joe826]

another rough day at the SH tables. i actually only lost $60 or so but it just felt like one of those days where i couldn't get anything right. i'm tired of that feeling. i like to think i'm pretty well past the point of getting upset about bad beats, but i'm still put in difficult situations that i just don't know how to handle. i really feel like i should know this stuff by now. i definetly need to work harder, and play more. does anyone ever feel like this? i feel like a i'm a decent player, but i haven't made a whole lot of progress the last couple months. i'd like to consider myself a damn good player eventually..

anyways here's a couple of hands.

Hand 1
------

5/10 6-handed - a nice generally loose passive table.

I'm in the BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Everyone limps and SB completes. I check. 6 to the flop.

Flop: [5s, 9d, 3c] SB checks, I bet, 3 callers, one fold, SB calls.

Turn: [ 7h ] SB checks, I bet, 2 callers. SB checkraises, I fold.

Is leading this flop the way to go? With all those players in I feel like I had lost the hand before I even started betting.


Hand 2
------

This is my default. Bad? Table is loose passive again.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB calls, Hero folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (6.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 6.50 BB, between Button, SB and UTG.</font>

[J.R.]

I like check-raisng hand 1, Hand 2 I normally bet because: 1) if your Q is bets, its far less vulnerable than a 9, even more so because its 4 handed than 6 handed and 2) in Hand 1 there are 4 more folks to bet, whereas in hand 2 there are only two more to act.

i definetly need to work harder, and play more

Me to. My last 10K hands wre up and down. Keep plugging away, you have to challenege yourself to get better, and you will get better.

[Grisgra]

I'm even worse than you, because I don't fold on the flop in Hand #2. Maybe in a ring game, but in a SH game I like my top pairs, kicker or no kicker.

[Joe826]

I was going to check/raise in hand 1, but what if the bet comes from early position and gets lots of callers? Then it seems like check-raising would be worse then just leading out because it ties people to the pot.

The board is just so nasty in hand 2 that I couldn't continue. I feel like this situation is a very marginal one given the board and the number of players who are likely to continue. I might just be thinking weakly due to not winning a whole lot lately though.

[MAxx]

i read your hands somewhat fast and i cannot claim to know the exact way to proceed in those spots. however, if those plays make you the worst player... then there is no money to be made playing poker. those are not terrible by any means, and i think you are being too hard on yourself.

i would have played those hands slightly more aggressively, but i can definitely see the logic in being cautious with them.

[Joe826]

[ QUOTE ]
however, if those plays make you the worst player... then there is no money to be made playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i'm a big fan of hyperbole, plus i just hate poker today.

also this is a bump for those that want to talk about hand 1. what do you do if you check and get an early position bettor + calls? i'm always confused when that happens, so i just started leading out.

[Schneids]

Hand one is typically a lead out for me, as is hand two.

I think the fold in hand 1 is standard though I will often call down and sometimes be surprised to win.

[joker122]

Hey Joe (what a song),

Hand 1: Bad fold. TPTK is good here often enough. And leading the flop is definitely the way to go.

Hand 2: I would just bet the flop and see what happens. I really don't like you folding to a button bet here at all.

edit - you're avatar/location are clearly awesome.

[stripsqueez]

i like to bet out with both - folding to a turn raise on hand 1 is marginal - flopping top pair in an unraised short handed pot and check/folding is a shocker

looks like scared poker to me but as schneids has just reminded me i'm an animal on the flop

poker really is 95% composure 5% technique - put another way the answers are easy but knowing the questions is hard - poker players think thats crap but if they played technically challenging games i reckon they would soon recognise it as true

i think working on your game is what you do when you play

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
flopping top pair in an unraised short handed pot and check/folding is a shocker

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

[ QUOTE ]
I think working on your game is what you do when you play

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of players play on autopilot. Maybe u learn if u slow down and play less tables then normal, but multitabling is not the fastest way to learn subtle differences. Not saying you cant learn it all at the tables, but it takes longer.

[ACW]

Hand 1 I'd throw in an extra bet preflop. I wouldn't do this at many tables, but given the loose passive description I think you gain some equity in getting everyone to call another bet. Checking is OK though.

Once you get raised on the turn, I think you have to call to see the river, especially as it looks like you'll have three others in with you - and I don't expect any of them to 3 bet.

You probably have 5 outs here, although you could be against a straight, in which case you're drawing dead.
Against a set, you have 2 outs. You seem to be getting 12.5 to 1 (if I've added up right!) to see the river.
If you plan to call the river the odds are worse. I think you have to check fold the river unless a 9 or A falls - any other card apart from a 2 figures to improve someone and the river will get raised.

I wouldn't worry myself about hand 2. It's close, but fold is probably right.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]

Once you get raised on the turn, I think you have to call to see the river, especially as it looks like you'll have three others in with you - and I don't expect any of them to 3 bet.

You probably have 5 outs here, although you could be against a straight, in which case you're drawing dead.
Against a set, you have 2 outs. You seem to be getting 12.5 to 1 (if I've added up right!) to see the river.
If you plan to call the river the odds are worse. I think you have to check fold the river unless a 9 or A falls - any other card apart from a 2 figures to improve someone and the river will get raised.


[/ QUOTE ]

Initially I didn't like the fold in hand 1, also figuring 5 outs and sufficient odds. However, he's drawing dead against a set - not two outs - as hitting his 9 would fill up the set. As you said, he's also drawing dead against a straight. I think the key is that the SB check-raised multiple players on the turn, and you have to give him credit for two pair at the least (would he play A9/K9/98/etc. this way?), against which you have three outs, maybe four if you figure that a 9 is good half the time. HU, I'd call, but in this situation I think the fold is OK.

[Joe826]

hey everyone, thanks for the replies. as far as folding the turn in hand one it was relatively easy for me. the table in general was loose passive and i had never seen this dude checkraise when he didn't have a big hand. i didn't mention the opponent specifically because i'm was more concerned about my initial flop action. i might be folding too much in these situations, but at the same time it feels like i'm calling down too much. this game is definetly about picking your spots to be aggressive and knowning when to call down.

hand 2 was definetly a C/R for me had SB not called. it looks like I should have anyways, since button had king high and ended up taking down the pot /images/graemlins/mad.gif. thanks for settin me straight.

[ACW]

mea culpa.

I must have been half asleep when I posted that. The fact that you may be drawing dead may against a set or a straight, but will find it impossible to fold aces up or trips on the river probably does make this a fold. I think it's really close.