Help with Live tourney play

[davidross]

I'm heading to foxwoods next week to play a tourney, some sats and hopefully the main event of the World Poker Open. My live tournament experience consists of two super sats at Binions during this years WSOP and one NL tournament at the Orleans the same week. I had no idea how to play NL tournaments at that point (no smart ass comments here please) so I want to ask what do I have to be aware of. THings I can think of, and are worried about are:
1) Keeping track of the pot size. I'm a spoiled online player.
2) Looking at my cards only when it's my turn to play. Is this really the best way to do it?
3) Tells. I'm sure I'm going to have some, what do I do to minimize them?

[GingerRail]

I played my first live game at Foxwoods after some online play. You won't have any trouble keeping track of the pot size. The ACT tournaments (satellites) use only 2 color chips (25 & 100) & a simple glance will give you an approximate idea of how much is in.
You WILL have to pay attn to see if/when the action is on you & how much. You don't get prompted like on line and there's no "auto post" of blinds.
You can go on line to the Foxwoods web site & look at some poker info, including structure sheets for the tournaments. If you read it ahead of time, it is one less thing to keep track of.
Re: looking at yr cards - I will let the more experienced players answer that - However, unlike on line where your cards are always in view, you take a quick peek & don't want to keep checking yr cards. So make sure you can memorize rank & suit with one quick glance. It may sound obvious & easy but it's possible to misread/forget your cards in live play.
Good luck & maybe I'll see you there.

[serling]

Hi David --

To minimize tells, wear a big Unabomber hood and sunglasses. The bigger the better for both. (Not really.)

In early rounds, I'll look at my cards fast and then put them down so I can watch others. Later rounds I'll wait until it's my action.

Though I've found in most tourneys people rarely watch anything but their own cards and the flop. They're not looking to their left, or watching your hands and chips (but if you catch anyone who *does*, stay out of their way). And if they're wearing sunglasses and raising, I give them no respect.

The one piece of advice I'd say is to always announce a raise. Putting a big chip out there or less than the min. raise could be misconstrued as a call or angling string bet.

Oh, and always protect your cards.

And don't forget to bring your Oreos.

Good luck!

serling

[pshreck]

The 'looking at my cards only when it gets to me' is so overrated its rediculous. This is what it does.... lets EVERYONE at the table get a good look at how you respond to your cards. We all know tells are overrated, but lots of players cant help but do a little something when they stare down at AA or AKs, KK or QQ (these are the hands I always feel myself kind of flinch when I see).

Im no know-it-all... but I'd say, just look at your cards quickly when you get them, then look at the other players as you start a gameplan in your head (the times your not folding). When you are folding, really get a good look at the players reactions and how they bet, how they limp, etc.

All in all... if your a good internet player you are no huge disadvantage in a live event.

My advantage is im nervous whenever Im in a pot, bluffing or not, so I always give off weakness. Helps sometimes, hurts others....

Lastly.... its annoying. A few a my foxwoods sattelites had a guy who EVERY time it came to him, put on his sunglasses, took his marker off his cards, and looked at them.

[McMelchior]

I'm still inexperienced enough when it comes to live tournaments (have approximately 20 under my belt) to dare give some advice here.

It's really not that easy to keep track of pot size, especially in tourneys (in sats the blinds go up so fast that pretty fast your options are reduced to either calling or pushing). So I follow the action, count the number of bets and raises (as you might have discovered there are abundant "limit-size" raises in low-buy-in live tourneys), and take a swift look at my cards when it's my turn to act. I have noticed that's it's easier for me to memorize them ordered hi-low-suit-suit.

Regarding tells:
Picking up: I have found the surefire one to be "the shaking hand" when the player has got the goods. Of course remember to check for symptoms of Parkinsonism when the players are not in a hand.

Giving off: The –EV of giving off tells might be over-rated for experienced live tournament players, but I believe my base personality (slightly understated, polite and rather easily intimidated) might be more of a liability. To make up for that I have experimented with a table persona, where I consequently verbally state my actions loud and clear, (even though most of the other players don’t). When I act I await the next players action with my head lowered and my eyes focused on the table in front of me – a relatively defiant attitude - whether I have the stone cold nut or am pulling a raw bluff. I have seen it work as a “reverse tell” when I actually was bluffing, and I avoid eye contact when I’m involved without that being a tell in itself.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[Stoneii]

in short, whatever it is you do when you raise (twitch, grin, stare at baize, guffaw uncontrollably), try to do exactly the same whether you're holding THE NUTS or just plain ARE U NUTS hands.

But I play in alocal club/league that is small fry and it's easier said than done. I find it much easier to find tells in the way players play hands, i.e. always raises with any Ace, will ALWAYS chase flushes regardless of pot odds, can't laydown slick easily etc etc

GL

stoneii

[nolanfan34]

David,

A couple of points and thoughts.

Personally, I don't bother with worrying about waiting for my turn to look at my cards. I look as soon as I have both, then watch the action. There's still plenty to pick up on, and I think people's body language when they make their bets is more important than when they look at their cards. I mean, playing against unknowns, who probably aren't all great to begin with, unless they pick up an absolute monster, you're not going to pick up a lot by watching them look at their cards.

I will say that watching the players to your left is extremely valuable. A lot of people make it very clear that they're going to fold. I mean, some people hold the cards in their hand, ready to muck as soon as possible, like the cards are on fire or something. Cracks me up. One time in a tournament I raised with 83o in the SB simply because I had been watching the BB, who was just waiting to fold at the first sign of a raise. After I raised, he gave a quick look at his cards again, and quickly mucked.

As for tells that you might give off, what I like to do is stick to a specific routine each hand. I look at my cards, mark them with a chip, and then watch the action. I may know right away that I'm going to fold, but I act the same way every time, so others don't know my intentions. It's great when you play with someone who only caps their cards when they have a decent hand. It's like they've committed to playing the hand when they put their marker down, compared to other hands where they just keep their hand on top of the cards, ready to muck.

Regarding routine, I think Howard Lederer is a great example of this. If you watch him on TV, he does the same thing every time, regardless of his hand.

I also agree that the shaking tell is usually a good one, it means someone has a monster hand.

Finally, this is a personal thing, but I try to wear loose fitting clothing, or a jacket, because when I get nervous in a hand, you can see my heart beating out of my chest if I'm just wearing a t-shirt or something. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

GL in the tournaments!

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
I also agree that the shaking tell is usually a good one, it means someone has a monster hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
The first time I played live I found this happening so I just forced my hand to shake every time. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

If you find it tough to maintain perfect composure you could always try Unabomber-like antics to cover for yourself. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[eMarkM]

Pot size: yeah, keep track of it. Simply count the bets as they go in. Though you can usually take a look at the pot and get an approximation if you get distracted.

Looking at cards: One reason to wait to look at your cards is to look at the action. Keeping track of the pot, looking at the players on your left, etc.

Tells: When I put a bet in I usually just look down and don't move when another player is trying to "look into my soul". I try not to make eye contact with the other player mulling a decision (or you can wear sunglasses--I don't).

Another thing to watch for as a spoiled internet player is acting out of turn. Really pay attention to who's in the pot and who's turn it is to act.

[Philuva]

It sounds cheesy, but u should wear sunglasses. I think the hardest thing for an online player to adapt to in live play is what to do when someone looks at you.

I have a lot of live experience and just started using sunglasses in the last tourney i played in and i thought it was a big help.

Also, make sure u know about string raises, verbal commands, etc. Obviously, that is even more important than tells.

[eMarkM]

...and anyone else going to Foxwoods the weekend of the big tourney.

I may be able to make it to Foxwoods on Saturday, day one of the big event, though I won't be playing the tournament. I'm looking to see if I can swing in for some ring games on Sat/Sun before my week of business travel that week in Jersey. I sent you a PM.

[Boris]

1. Make sure you announce your raises clearly. I assume you're familiar with a string raise?

2. Be prepared to make some strategy adjustments based on the extremely slow play in B&M tournaments. You get a alot more hands per blind level in an online tourney relative to a B&M tourney. This effectively reduces your stack size in a B&M tourney so in my experience you have to gamble a bit more and play a bit more aggressively.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you're familiar with a string raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember reading a thread debating whether someone had made a string raise, but I'm not 100% sure I understand what one is. Could someone please explain (just in case I win the Foxwoods super this Saturday /images/graemlins/cool.gif)?

Thanks,
Che

[Boris]

In live play (tournament or NL cash game) if you don't announce to table how much you are going to raise, you only get to make one motion from your stack to the pot.

For example, say you are playing with $5 chips. You have two stacks of $100 each. You want to raise $200 but you don't say anything. You push one stack of chips into the pot and then come back to push another stack of chips into the pot. This is a string raise.

If you announce ahead of time how much you are going to bet then you can make as many motions as you feel like.

So your two choices are to announce the size of your bet before moving your chips, or just move all the chips you're going to bet in one motion.

[Che]

Thanks, Boris.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
So your two choices are to announce the size of your bet before moving your chips, or just move all the chips you're going to bet in one motion.

[/ QUOTE ]

One last thing to mention on top of that, when you make your verbal intention to raise, just say raise. What you can't do is say "I call your 100.....and raise you 500". If people complain about your string bet in that case, usually you're only allowed to make the initial call, and not raise.

[Lloyd]

I think the biggest issue is confidence. I know the first time I played in a casino tournament I was a little apprehensive and it showed in my play. For some reason I put more faith in that a casino player was better than an online player. Well, they are not. They are the same. You'll get the same level of player in a casino tournament as you would in a similar buy-in online tournament. If you're successful online, you will be successful on land.

The mistake I see more people make when playing in a casino for the first time is that they are not aware of the single chip rule that exists in every tournament I've played. If the blinds are 25/25 (a common initial level) and you throw in a 100 chips without saying anything, you've called the 25 blind. If you throw in 3 25 chips, that's a raise. But if you just put in one chip without saying anything it's considered a call. This rule sometimes applies on post flop play as well. So make sure you do what the others have said and announce your raises, at least until you are comfortable with the single chip issue.

Try and play some cheap limit games to get used to the live action - particularly looking at your cards quickly and memorizing them.

But the bottom line - don't worry. I'm sure you'll be just fine.

[mntbikr15]

My understanding of it is when you place your call in first and then try to raise after your hand is off of the call.

That is without verbally anouncing that you plan to raise first.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
For some reason I put more faith in that a casino player was better than an online player. Well, they are not. They are the same. You'll get the same level of player in a casino tournament as you would in a similar buy-in online tournament. If you're successful online, you will be successful on land.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have found the casino player to be worse.

Some commons mistakes I see live way more than online are:

a) Casino tourney players check when ahead way too often and let their opponents catch up when they are trying to trap or check-raise
b)They also tend to not bet enough to price out all the draws.
c) I also see alot more limping which seems easier to punish (don't get played back at as often when raising a bunch of limpers)

In all I think that on average the % of dead money is higher live than online (at similar buy ins) (I usually play $100-$500 live tourneys and similar or smaller online)

I haven't played in a WPT event, so it may be different (anyone here who has played in one care to comment?)

The only big buy tourney I have played was the 2004 WSOP final event, and the dead $$$ % there was quite high (I include myself in the dead $$$ for that tourney, I was horrid)

The three tips that have helped me the most were:

1) look left before deciding on your PF action. Alot of players let you know what they are going to do. This is especially helpfull if you were going to steal from the CO-1 position and you look left to see the button shaking and getting ready to push his stack in.

2) Watch your opponents during the dealing of the flop, not the cards. Even with ball caps and glasses many players will let you know how much they liked the flop with clenched jaws, pursed lips, flushed faces, etc.

3) Have a routine. I always checked my cards as soon as I had two, then dropped a chip on them and then followed the action while checking what is going on to my left. Lots of players only drop a chip on their cards when they are going to play them, I found it handy to always drop a chip so I wasn't fumbling if I wanted to play the hand.

Good Luck David!!!
Woodguy

[Bigwig]

I suggest waiting to look at your cards for two reasons.

1. You want to see the action before it gets to you. Who has called, or raised, and what position they are in. This way, by the time it gets to you, you'll have a good feel for what your action is going to be based on your hand before you even look at it.

2. It helps you keep track of the size of the pot. You can do the math beforehand.

Also, wear a hat. Sunglasses are unnecessary and cheesy. But unless your mind is a computer, sometimes you might have to look at the board for a while to determine outs, and think through what your opponent might have. If they can see your eyes, they might put you on a draw, or something like that, since they'll notice what you're studying. Also, take the same amount of time to bet/call/fold. TJ Cloutier once mentioned how he can tell whos on a draw by how much longer they take to call in certain situations. He knows they're calculating outs.

[DonT77]

Good point on taking the same amount of time for each type of play.

Be conscious of what messages your are sending your opponents. If you get caught staring at the pot, then your opponents might put you on a draw. To counter that, do exactly the same thing next time when you have the nuts - pretend to be calculating pot odds.

One thing that people who are looking for tells look for is inconsistencies in how you put your money into the pot. If you put your chips in confidently or cautiously. Do you neatly stack your chips or do you toss them in? Betting tempo and betting mannerisms are something for you to self-monitor. Also, many inexperienced players tend to look at their chips when they have a hand - so make sure that you don't give off that tell. Of course if you think somebody is watching you then you can look at your chips and then make a bluff or check for a free card. These are the sort of things to be concerned with. Definitely read Caro's Book of Tells, but realize that most of this stuff only works against novice to intermediate players.

[davidross]

I have a bit of a shake anyway, but when I get cards it can be pretty bad, although usually after the hand is over. My remedy is to get a cocktail when I sit down and keep them coming. I hope the drinks are comped like they are in Vegas.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a bit of a shake anyway, but when I get cards it can be pretty bad, although usually after the hand is over. My remedy is to get a cocktail when I sit down and keep them coming. I hope the drinks are comped like they are in Vegas.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you look at your cards, keep your hands in contact with the table. This will cause the shaking to minimize. Then, to avoid keeping your hands still, shuffle chips or something. Cross your arms.

[davidross]

I'm thinking I need around 5K to cover entry into 3 Act III sats and the $565 NL tourney, plus ring games. I hate the thought of carrying 5K with me in my pocket, but my daily debit card limit is only 1K.

What do others do in these cases where you need access to a lot of cash?

[eMarkM]

Get a money belt. I brought +4K with me to Vegas when we met up there for the WSOP and always had all of my money on me. Kept enough in my wallet for whatever buyin I needed and the rest in the belt. I always felt secure with it.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
Then, to avoid keeping your hands still, shuffle chips or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever I am playing live I play with chips and do chip tricks every time i am involved in a pot. It helps to keep me calm and keep me from giving off any distinctive tells. Occasionally it also helps to intimidate a weak opponent as well. I once watched an opponent stare at my hand for a full minute before folding to a stone bluff as i was doing a repeated chiptwirl. I know that the intimidation factor of chip tricks is overrated by the likes of Dutch Boyd and others but once in a while it does help out.

-Brad

[BradL]

This is something i have struggled with in the past. Where does one aquire a "money belt"?

-Brad

[eMarkM]

Usually sold in the luggage department. I got mine at JC Penny. I use it whenever I travel, not just for carrying around a big poker stake.

[BradL]

n/m

[eejit]

I just played live for the first time last week at the stinky old Imperial Palace in Vegas, 2/4 limit.

What really surprised me was the amount of times I sat next to somebody who inadvertently showed their cards every time they checked them. I wasn't trying to look, but sometimes it was hard to miss.

One funny thing I saw, was a guy who was a dead ringer for Greg Raymer playing in the afternoon $50 buy in nl tourny. Apparently Chris Moneymaker had played in a couple of these tourny's the week before, because a buddy of his was staying at the hotel. So I thought, well anything's possible. His friend at the next table was even calling him Fossil.

But the tip off that it wasn't Greg was the way he looked at his cards. He'd pick them up off the table and practically hold them under his chin while looking at them. I don't recall seeing Fossilman making this move on ESPN. But like Greg this guy did go on to win the tournament.

Playing live was a blast, I can't wait to do it again.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking I need around 5K to cover entry into 3 Act III sats and the $565 NL tourney, plus ring games. I hate the thought of carrying 5K with me in my pocket, but my daily debit card limit is only 1K.

What do others do in these cases where you need access to a lot of cash?

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, you really don't play live, do you? Get 5k in 100s, put a rubber band around them, and fold them over once. Fits comfortably into jeans/pants pockets. This is really just psychological. You'll very quickly get used to carrying around 5-10k.

[sdplayerb]

1. depends how good you are at math. if a big decision just try to remember the bet at each street and do the math.
2. i always wait to look. i try to get a feel on the strength of other people's plays before i see my hand. i believe seeing my hand biases me..such as TT i feel like I purposely read somebody for weakness and can overplay it.
3. i try to think about other things when i first look at my hand think of what i see as two pictures of numbers and suits and then sort out in my mind what i really have about a half second later when i have gained my composure..ie when i have a strong hand.

good luck.

[Bernas]

[ QUOTE ]

2. Be prepared to make some strategy adjustments based on the extremely slow play in B&M tournaments. You get a alot more hands per blind level in an online tourney relative to a B&M tourney. This effectively reduces your stack size in a B&M tourney so in my experience you have to gamble a bit more and play a bit more aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is playing in the Main Event, that shouldn't be an issue. He will get plenty of hands per level.

[TomCollins]

Don't worry. You are a very strong player. Just don't do anything obvious. You are a much better player than me, and I didn't really have any trouble adjusting. Play a home game with friends and offer them $5 a tell or something rediculous. It's not a bad idea.

[Bernas]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played in a WPT event, so it may be different (anyone here who has played in one care to comment?)


[/ QUOTE ]

Took me a good level and a half before I felt comfortable. There is a lot of limping early, just like a lot of online tournaments.

In the WPT Main event you need to remain focused for a much longer time than you do online. They aren't kidding when they say it is long and grueling.

I am going to be at the Main Event in Foxwoods. Hopefully I will see you at the final table David.

Cheers,
Brad

[Bernas]

I wouldn't worry about any tells. Be more concerned with your betting patterns.

[davidross]

Nope I don't. When I carry $300 I keep checking my pocket to see if it's there.