Question About Tricky HEPFAP Play

[gaming_mouse]

Third Edition pg. 168:
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You have: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 10/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Flop comes: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif

and the pot is pretty big, it is almost mandatory to bet if you are in early position. You do this not only because you might make a straight, but because it is important to get hands like K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif or K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 10/images/graemlins/club.gif out.


[/ QUOTE ]


Question: It seems this play is only worthwhile when someone does not already have an ace, but since the pot is pretty big we can assume there has been a preflop raise and assume that at least 4 opps are still in -- two assumptions that make no ace fairly unlikely. Is the point that the small percentage of times when no one has an ace make the play worthwhile? Or is there more to it?

[gaming_mouse]

Forgot to ask also: Since a modern 2/4 is usually fairly loose, this advice should apply there, right?

gm

[helpmeout]

It really depends on the situation, I am not betting this in early position with a big field.

Thats just asking for trouble.

I'll bet this or raise this in late position to pickup a freecard or against few players because I might win the pot.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not betting this in early position with a big field.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet that is precisely what Sklansky and Malmuth are suggesting. It goes against my instincts too, but that could just mean my instincts are wrong in this situation...

gm

[AdamL]

Hi,

It might not be the very best example, a J-high flop would be similar but less scary.

The point is though, you have odds to go for a draw to the nuts and you ALSO have SOME chance of pairing up for the best hand.

Without the gutshot though, you aren't betting.

Just my 2 cents.

[StellarWind]

Let me venture an interpetation of this advice. Use it at your own risk.

Thanks to troublemakers like Sklansky, I think players raise the flop a lot more than they used to. I wasn't there to see it, but that's my impression.

The perspective of his advice is that raises are unlikely, but late position bets against loose pots are almost unavoidable. Hence, your choices with a modest draw in a big pot are 1) bet and be called or 2) check and call a bet. These both cost the same. It this is the way it's going to be, the benefits of betting from EP instead of check-calling are completely free.

This idealization doesn't really hold of course, but after you reduce the EV cost of betting by the equity your gutshot outs give you against several callers, it can be true that the extra cost of betting is actually very low. That allows you to bet for small advantages.

There is a follow-on idea to this advice that I never see mentioned. Many players are quick to raise the flop but slow to 3-bet. Raising the flop in early position does not cost extra if it causes a player near the button to coldcall (or fold) instead of raising. This is worth is remembering if you have a draw like middle pair that might occasionally be the best hand. Raising protects your hand much more effectively than calling two bets one at a time. The mere possibility of displacing a later raise decreases the extra cost of raising which can make the difference in a close decision.